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Post by Doyle on Jun 1, 2004 3:01:52 GMT
Joss Whedon has described the idea behind season 6 as being "What happens when you fight the corporate machine....and win? Where do you go from there?" and logistically that's where we should steer season 6 ourselves.
Other notable tidbits squeezed out of Jeff Bell and Amy Acker mention the possible addition of OZ as well as the return of Fred....alongside Illryria as Amy was to hold duel roles. This too makes sense to the theme... especially Amy's roles.
Illyria: Losing Wesley, her only real "connection" she seemed to have with anyone as well as losing the majority of her powers and now having to rely on Angel and co. exclusively. She is a useless god with nowhere else to go.
Fred: Soul somehow reconstructed (rumoured Wllow appearance I think it was to be) and now finds herself with neither Wes or Gunn, both of which had been killed in her absence. What really is left for her?
Thematically, its all there for us. Now we need to take the reigns and run with it.
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Post by tyuun on Jun 1, 2004 3:13:19 GMT
I don't think we should look at this thinking we can keep writing more and more seasons. I'd like us to just have this be the end. So lets make this a good one. Real big, real dirty, real sad.
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Post by Doyle on Jun 1, 2004 3:17:02 GMT
Whatever we pull off for the finale of S6 will need to have echoes of S5's. Thats the point of the series, that the fight will always continue and if we conclude Angel's story in a definite manner ala shanshu, getting together with Buffy, etc. it cheapens the intent of the original creators. I agree, Season 6 is where it ends and with a bang, but lets do our best to be respectful of the source.
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Post by Joss on Jun 1, 2004 3:44:13 GMT
Guys, I heard that somewhere around the net that the big bads for season 6 were going to be the The Powers that Be. This got me to thinking, but what about all of the Senior Partners plans for Angel and all that.
So then I thought... what if in the end it is revealed that the Powers that Be were no other than the Senior Partners?
Just a little crazy idea that I came up with right now that might make some sense.
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Post by Joss on Jun 1, 2004 4:21:27 GMT
One thing regarding Angelus and this thematic. If you think about it for a while, the separation of Angel and Angelus has a lot to do with this theme. Angel has always been a contrast, the good vamp with a soul vs the psycho fucked up vampire.
Now imagine that they are finally free of each other, no longer having that threat hanging on the back of their minds, no longer having the contrast, that balance per se, inside of you. All of a sudden you are 100% per cento something again. Where do you go from there?
By the way guys, I think that we should go season 6 and 7. I feel that we are all having too many great ideas here, and to try to cram them all in season 6 would be horrible, and to only do half of them would be a damn shame. So I vote that to be able to develop as much as we can we do season 6, and the final season being 7.
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Post by tyuun on Jun 1, 2004 4:35:16 GMT
This Angel/Angelus theme is definitly thee way to go! Shanshu, I'm not sure anyone should get it however, if we thee only way to give angel a soul permently is to split him from Angelus then he will not have to worry about losing his soul anymore so he will be much better off. I feel we should pay extra attention to Spike this season. He has got more stories to tell. Angelus shouldn't be alone in his quest to destroy. Aree we talking that we defeated WR&H or just won that one fight? Because we could say that WR&H's big plans weren't for Angel at all but Angelus. So we say thee PTB stepped in in that final fight I mean shit they owe us for all the good we've done we've never asked them for anything in return. It seems to me the only ones who could reeally destroy the Senior Partners is the PTB.
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Post by ShinyOne on Jun 1, 2004 4:43:55 GMT
I really like the idea that TPTB and the SP are one and the same. I think it would fit with Joss' ideas - that evil and good are subjective, evil will always be here, etc. That said, I'm not sure how he can fight them - just as Angel said in the show - he couldn't take down the Senior Partners, but he could take down their foothold here on earth. How could he fight The Powers That Be who also do not exist on this plane?
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Post by tyuun on Jun 1, 2004 4:57:27 GMT
The final battle would be very tough to write and script so I think it is best to leave that wholee thing as a flashback of shorts. Besides in reality there would be no way they could win. to write the whole thing out would be just too hard. It should be more or less left up to the imagination but we should hear just enough about it understand that we did somehow make it through. Angel and crew (Angeel, spike and Illyria) should go their seperate ways after the fight but get drawn back together for some reason... haven't figured that part out yet.
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Post by littlewhiterabbit on Jun 1, 2004 6:23:41 GMT
The idea of having TPTB and the Senior Partners be one and the same is a really cool one, but it doesn't quite work with what Joss set up in the final few episodes. If the Powers send the visions, which showed Angel how to defeat the Circle (which, I'm assuming, is the quick-and-dirty equivalent of the Senior Partners in corporeal form) then they can't also be the Senior Partners.
I really like the whole power theme that got introduced with Illyria. I think it'd be interesting to see Angel and the crew with all that power, and not knowing what to do with it. I have a feeling he'd handle it badly, in a humbling way. It could be cool.
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Post by Drew on Jun 1, 2004 6:25:27 GMT
I agree about sticking to Joss's set theme of bucking the system. As for splitting up Illyria and Fred, I may have this wrong, but I believe the rumour got messed up somewhere and what was originally planned was that when Illyria took over Fred's body in "A Hole in the World", they would split in two so we would have Amy Acker playing two roles at the end of Season Five. It was to have happened then and not in Season 6. I think it was an abandoned concept. I think. Anyway, I'm for leaving Fred dead.
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Post by Drew on Jun 1, 2004 6:31:25 GMT
Yeah, I think TPTB and the SP being the same thing is really intriguing, but there is that confusion that littlewhiterabbit brings up - unless TPTB are just there to make Angel keep fighting, to keep THE FIGHT going.
Then again, I'm kind of sick of our heroes fighting larger than life incorporeal beings that can't actually be defeated. I mean, it worked nice thematically - especially this last season of Angel (The First is another matter), but let's move on to something else.
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Post by Drew on Jun 1, 2004 6:41:40 GMT
Going with the "what happens if you buck the system and it collapses...what do you do?" theme. . .
So Angel no longer has the reward of the Shanshu to keep him fighting. Now, he is fighting because it is the right thing to do. So the season starts like that, but what if something happens to make him think it isn't the right thing to do. I don't know what that would be right now. You know, the evil Wolfram & Hart system has collapsed and everyone's all "hurray!" but they've done the wrong thing - and I totally just paraphrased the quote and didn't get us anywhere. Go me! Joss said the next season would have been some major chaos. Here's a thought that I haven't really put much thought into: Angel and co. have caused the gears of the SP's evil machine to come to a halt. So evil is on the decline. To compensate, evil becomes more pronounced in humans. And I think that sucks. I'm just throwing out ideas here. This is a hard theme to wrap my mind around.
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Post by tyuun on Jun 1, 2004 7:11:42 GMT
I think we have enough ideas to be able to narrow everything down and weed out the crap. We need to agree on things and start to find a direction rather than just non-stop ideas. Make some sort of outline not for the entire season but just to get an understanding of whats going to go on so we could start wrtting things down and what not. No rush but just to have everyone moving in the same direction.
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Post by littlewhiterabbit on Jun 1, 2004 7:23:19 GMT
Good point. I think it's also more important to discuss plot points than great overlapping themes, because the theme is carried through in the details which. . .we're probably going to bicker about for a while. So we should start doing that.
My feeling is, if we can get an outline of the season finished by about July and start production then, we're golden.
And I know I'm not a mod, but Drew, it's ok to include more than one idea in the same post.
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Post by Doyle on Jun 1, 2004 8:52:32 GMT
I think its almost outline time. Sort out who's joining the cast and a big bad if we're going with one and then start weeding out the good from the bad concepts and then start pitching the stories! woot!
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Post by Drew on Jun 1, 2004 17:02:28 GMT
Already? Don't these things take, like, usually more than a day?
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Post by Doyle on Jun 1, 2004 17:35:14 GMT
Yes, they really do, which is why no one here is suggesting we are to be writing the outline today. Okay, sorry if I may have oversimplified things in my previous post. I just mean, we have our major thematical issues worked out really so we need to move on and focus on character and big bad discussion so we can get to discussing character and story arcs for the season which is where the real discussion and debate will be. That's when we really start sussing out details and can start piecing the seasons outline together. All this would hardly happen in a day. ;D
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Post by tyuun on Jun 1, 2004 18:48:43 GMT
Here is a basic outline with the ideas we'vee discussed.
-Split Angel and Angelus
-Bring in Oz and Nina
-Perhaps have the PTB have a larger role this season
-Put off the Shanshu as long as possible if used at all
-Big debate whether to split Fred/Illyria or to just keep them one. Must get this together
-Willow, Giles and Buffy guest spots (those are the only three that would help Angel out I believe) but remember knowbody really trusts Angel anymore according to Andrew
-Did we beat W&H or just that one battle? Needs to cleared up
-Bring back Gwen
-Leave Gunn dead and we'll see Lorne for 1 episode
-Connor should have something to do with this season
-Assuming we won the battle (not the war) W&H is the big bad as usual but they should be using Angelus to regain control. Angel and Co. must have toppled W&H and after we split Angel/Angelus somehow they use him to get back on top.
Let me know what you guys think... it's rough but it's something
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Post by tyuun on Jun 1, 2004 19:28:45 GMT
Perhaps the Demon guy (that returned Spikes soul) that Spike takes Angel to is really working for W&H so when he gave Spike his soul back (this of course screwing up the Shanshu prophecy because according to it there is supposed to only be one vampire with a soul) he knew that Angel would get wind of it and try to get his back permantly. So when Angel finishes all his trials and such the Demon lifts the curse and his soul is restored for good. Little do we know that he actually split Angel from Angelus (splitting Good from Evil) rather than just lifting the curse because he is a part of W&H. This being W&H's BIG PLANS for Angel....
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Post by Doyle on Jun 1, 2004 21:05:52 GMT
Here is a basic outline with the ideas we'vee discussed. -Split Angel and Angelus This is an incredibly lame idea that not only negates the entire idea of the character but its been done. I don't think this needs to be a package deal. I assumed Nina would be used merely as a gateway to bring Oz in and she would perhaps keep her recurring status or be killed or written off entirely. How? No more visions. Keeping with the theme I think we need to "move on" from past conventions and try to come with our own "whedonesque" concepts and ideas to fuel the season. Agreed. For the reason stated above if not for a million others. You know my thoughts on this. I'm pushing hard for a seperation for -what I belive are- very good reasons that can be found on several other threads. ;D With the exception of ME's original idea to bring Willow for the Fred/Illy sitch, I say leave the Buffyverse characters out or stick to secondaries such as Andrew, Clem, etc. Again, if we're keeping with Joss's inital theme, then I'd say W&H are no longer the big bad. Yeah, Gwen might be a fun character to have back around. But not as a regular I dont think. Yes on leaving Gunn dead, but no on seeing Lorne. I think it would just cheapen it. This is a sitch where I think the less we know and leave to everyones own imagination, the better. Agreed. With the way S5 worked out, I think we would have to go out of our way to avoid a reunion with Angel and himself. Of course if we're deadset against it, we can always do like Angel & Buffy when B came back to life and do it "off camera". No. Redundancy is not part of the Angel formula. "Move on" in theme and story is my vote. Just my thoughts on the above.
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