"Where do we go from here?" -S6 Thematically

[Drew]

Sorry, what I meant was we had only been presenting ideas for a day, not that the outline would only take a day.
But I see what you're saying now.
-I agree with not splitting Angel and Angelus.
-I'm fairly indifferent to bringing Oz and Nina back. I mean, she was only in, what, three episodes?
-I've also come around to the Gunn being dead point of view, but if we do this, we can't show it in the first episode - we can't show the battle, at least not at the beginning of the ep. Because a major character dying at the beginning of an ep, let alone at the beginning of a season, is just poor structural planning.
-Question: one of the few episodes I never saw was the one where Gwen got that device that inhibited her electrical powers. So does she still have powers?
-Also, Connor should just occassionally guest star. he's got a normal life now so lets leave him out of the major battles.

Okay, just a few ideas:
Angel has stopped the W&H machine. Angel, Spike, Illyria find themselves confronted by the original writer of the Shanshu prophecy (I know, hold on, bear with me). In fact, the ep could start out this way: It is raining. We find ourselves in a large mansion we have never seen before. An old man or demon sits there, looking at a parchment. He is despondent and is drinking (not heavily or cliche-ly). His servant enters and asks him if he is alright. The old man asks if they are here yet. yes, they're in the other room, replies the servant. "Have you treated their wounds?" "No." "Good." The old man goes into this other room and finds Angel, Spike, and Illyria bloody and badly beaten. Gunn has been left dead in the alley. End Teaser.
Anyway, that's just some visual stuff.
The Shanshu writer guy talks to them and tells them that by doing what they did, by taking out the circle of BT, they have prevented THE apocolypse. "There will always be an apocolypse," says Angel. "No. Not now. Not anymore." They prevented the apocolypse, they didn't stop it. So Spike does not Shanshu. And the prophecy guy is upset that he missed this detail when he originally foresaw the apocolypse. And he is upset that Angel has negated his work. Not violent upset, depressed upset.
So where would we go from there?
Basically, what this would mean is: Angel fights because he is atoning for his past. But now there is no fight - at least, not the kind he's used to. So how will he atone?
And how will this "no apocolypse" thing be a bad thing.
Remember, "apocolypse" doesn't mean destruction, it means "a revealing, an unveiling." Hell, an apocolypse could be a good thing if you look at it that way. Maybe Angel helps along the Apocolypse because THAT is the right thing to do.
I'm gonna have to think about the details more.

[jibberish]

what is the point of splitting angel and angelus? the specter of angelus that angel lives with is his memories of his past, of the things he has done, it's not something that can just be removed. if you do remove the angelus persona though, angel is what? human?--if that's the case then he'd be an ineffective adversary. does angel then become a vamp with a soul, ie: no change at all. well, that's pointless....and then, of course, we've already had angelus as a villain....more than once. the only new thing brought to the table would be them fighting each other openly, but since they are both equal and opposite it would essentially be a stalemate(unless you wanted to make some lame point that good is stronger and will always win). the whole point of the character is the internal drama and how it effects his decisions on the dilemnas he faces. to externalize his dark side negates the efficacy of the real war that wages within. you'd be creating a pure hero and a pure villain which would harken back to golden age comic books. not to mention, destroying his entire character arch in S5 which saw angel go from an idealist to a pragmatist in the fight against evil.

[Joss]

Okay guys, since it has been done before and we are getting so much negative feedback I vote that we scratch the Angelus return idea once and for good.

[Doyle]

Hey Drew, I like that concept. A lot. I think instead of bringing in the Shanshu guy, we do it differently. Maybe Whistler expressing the PTB being extremely upset with Angel and the gang for throwing everything out of balance and saying that they refuse to work with him anymore. or something. Or we can work that in to explain the absence of the powers this season. Maybe have Angel go to them for direction in the first eppy to be ejected from their presence for the above said reason.

As for Gunn...I dont think he would be seen at all in the first eppy and if I had my way, not at all. And only even mentioned when they eventually bring Fred back and catch her up to speed.

Okay, so I guess its my turn to offer a teaser out there (for fun only, since were so not ready lol) so howzabout this:

Camera zooms about the interior of the Hyperion slowly. The door bursts open and our 3 surviving heroes, extremely badly beaten and bloody enter. They don't say a word. Spike (minus his coat)flops down on the nearest comfortable seating as does Angel. Illyiria silently follows and looks around the Hyperion examining it, in that way that she does. There is silence. Spike looks up wiping blood and dirt off his face toward Angel. "so that it then? We won?"
Angel contemplates what they have just endured before speaking. "yeah..." he begins to almost beam with joy "we did, we WON!" Suddenly a mini explosion occurs. Everyone jumps to attention, Illyria is contained by some type of magical barrier, Spike has a small bottle of holy water explode against his face as he is swatted to the side, Angel is knocked on his ass just as quick and standing over him is......Sirk? "What...did... you...do...?" he growls as Eve steps out from behind him with "its payback" written all over her face. End Teaser. Episode title: "Winning".

And then of course Sirk, having his arcane and watcher knowledge can explain your concept regarding the prevention of the apocalypse. What do you think of something like that?

[Doyle]

A little more to add. Working off the "prevented rather than stopped" concept, we could naturally say things were set in motion that without the proper direction of the Black Thorn are now causing the world to very slowly be engulfed in chaos. That like our heroes, now the demons are directionless. What a mess....sounds good to me.

[Joss]

lol, I´m gonna agree with Doyle on the chaos issue. The more fucked up the world gets the better for our story.

[tyuun]

I like it however I think it shouldn't take place right after the fight but rather 3 months later like every season before. Every time Buffy or Angel ended there season when the next started it was 3 months later so I do believe we should stick with this. Even though I've been very into the idea of Angel/Angelus splitting I will back everyone up and say "No Angelus."
Let's move on from this and figure out what to do next.

[Joss]

Three months later sounds like a good idea, especially if we were going to use the flashback/Usual Suspects mode to tell the story of how they got out of that fight.

[tyuun]

I don't know who else like this idea but I have brought it up before. Opening scene... Flashes of LA then flash to a bar were we see a hand slam down with a shot glass. "Keep 'em coming." Camera pans over and up to reveal Spike drinking alone. Then we'd have some sort of dial dialogue something like... He takes another shot.
"I mean the things I do for this place and for what!"
"I mean come on I don't even get to be a real boy."
"And I've saved the world what 5... 6 times. ::underbreath:: I've lost count."
"But you could never understand. It was ugly mate real end of the world stuff this time."
"I feel like I deserve something. But no Angel gets all the recognition. It's always Angel, Angel, Angel."
"Yeah Yeah Yeah, I've hear this story a thousand times. You're best friend gets the girl right?"
"Hey listen he's not my friend. He's a... was a coworker and that's all."
"I want to slay the dragon he says."
"::scoffs:: what a ponch."
::flashback of battle::
"The good fight, yeah?! :scoffs::" Takes a shot he ups and turns to leave.
Trips and falls flat on face
"Bloody hell."

Fade in main theme...


I'm terrible with dialogue much better with story writing but I do what I can. Anyway this shit is all in my head if only someone could help me develope it.

[tyuun]

I see it happening this way because if the Powers did step in then Spike probably would be pissed and would feel that Angel always gets the favors and he is forever in Angel's shadow. I mean I'm sure Spike wanted to fight and if it got cut short he wouldn't be happy. I could just see him complaining and getting drunk even though they won and blaming it all on Angel because Angel did slay the dragon and Spike really wanted to.

[tyuun]

Then after main titles it could say "3 months earlier" And we see Angel, Spike and Illyria come into the Hyperion.... and then the stuff that Doyle said happens.

[Joss]

Okay Tyuun, how about this:

So Spike is there on the bar, probably a demon bar, ya know, so he can talk about the demons to someone who understands.

So he beigins talking to the bar keep, and he is piss drunk. So they get to talking and have a dialouge like the one you described.

Then the barkeep asks, "And what happened to your friend?"

Spike is silent, deeply in thought.

We fade to a dark alley, raining in incredible amounts. Countless dead bodies lie on floor. In the center of it all is one single person. He is kneeling, clutching at a horrible wound in his stomach. His face and body is covered with blood, a wide gash splits his left temple.
It´s Angel

Opening credits... David Boreanaz, James blah blah blah Amy Acker, yadda yadda yadda.

So the begining of the flashback could be this:
Angel dives headfirst into battle. He is kicking ass, wildly hacking at the demons. Spike is about to join him when something holds him back.
Spike looks back and finds that Illyria is holding him. She says, "We are fading, it is hopeless. We need to go to live."
Spike looks at the demons and then nods, he tries to get Angel´s attention, but fails. Illyira tells him, "He is doomed, he has drowned in his lust for self-destruction. There is nothing we can do for him."
Spike looks at Angel again and nods. They grab Gunn and get out of there.

That´s all I got for now.

[tyuun]

I like it the only thing is I'm not sure Spike would be in deep thought about Angel. The only thing he ever does is complain about him. But I think it would fade into the credits well. The thing I wrote about Spike falling while drunk would work too and give us a little laugh considering I don't this season isn't gonna have too many. It's up to you they both work. I'm confused about Illyria holding Spike back however.

[Joss]

Well, think about it. I believe that before she would have just gotten the hell outta there by herself, but now she is dependant. She has become attached, almost as attached as she was to Wesley. After Wesley Spike was the closest thing she had to a friend in this world. It would make sense that she would try to save him.

[Drew]

I had to look up who Sirk was. I think his character is way too small to even consider. It was just so long ago (slightly memorable, but not enough, I fear).
People can make the case for Whistler, too. The problem is I have a prejudice against Whistler because that actor absolutely annoyed the hell out of me. So glad they got Glenn Quinn instead. But that's neither here nor there. Feel free to take issue with me on that.
Anyway, I always think of Whistler as someone who probably is dead now. TPTB would have pegged him to help Angel but something happened so they gave the visions to Doyle.
I'd be all for it being someone completely new. Mysterious. Knowledgeable. Someone who doesn't get violently angry.

One more plug for the prophecy writer and going along with the world in chaos thing: So the demons are directionless and just causing general chaos. And the Shanshu prophecy guy explains that because of what they did, there will be no apocolypse, just never-ending chaos, never-ending fighting. The world will always be this way. Spike: "So a job well done, then."
So the point of the season is bringing order to evil. Or was that the point of last season? Maybe the point is something different.

And we really don't have to bring Shanshu into it in any serious way - maybe at the very, very end of the season. But not at the beginning. You know, Spike may ask him who gets Shanshu and he might reply something like this:
"I don't know! I don't care! You. Him. Me. What does it matter? What matters is that it happens! What matters is that I'm right!" Or what matters is that he gets credit. The question is: what would matter to a prophet.
Oh, and if he's really old - I mean, really, really old, I think he could be someone who knew Illyria and who perhaps "dated" Illyria. I mean, it would be some pretty fucked up dating/mating/whatever. He wouldn't have recognized her, of course, and neither would she recognize him. The way he will look this season won't have been the way he looked millions of years ago. Or however long ago.
Either way, it makes me crack up. With her new human emotions, she might feel embarrassment around him. . .or guilt. The people around them could just be disgusted at the ways they talk about their "relationship." You know, making love in the ooze that covers the earth - or whatever she said that one time. I don't know about you, but I'm laughing.

[Doyle]

My case for bringing Sirk in was basically because it felt "unfinished". He was working with Lindsey and Eve and then just disappeared. I think with Eve losing Lindsey, she would immediately run to the next person that she felt like she might be able to trust. Remember shes not from this world really and she has nothing now. Also, I thought the actor was great. I'd definitely like to see these points brought up and taken care of, even if just to dismiss the characters an episode later. Basically have an indirect continuiation from S5 just to clean up any possible threads and get them out of the way.

[Dismas]

Joss, that image of Angel bleeding over the field of slain enemies sounds awesome.

I'd like the season's theme to be about making the right choices in the battle of good and evil, and the chaos that follows the S5 finale make Angel doubt that he made the right one. The season could start with all the returning characters broken down physically or emotionally, doubting themselves.

A point about Shansu: everyone talks about it like during some grand finale a big light will shine down from heaven and make the chosen hero into a human. Wouldn't it be very Whedonesque something more anticlimactic suddenly caused it in the middle of the season? For example, if one of their enemies seized an opportunity to make Spike human just to weaken him? It could be very interesting to see what Spike would do if he finds himself too weak to be a fighter.

[Drew]

Dismas, I think making the right choices in the battle of good and evil has always been the theme of the show. And that should continue.
But your Shanshued Spike idea is a little too much like "I will Remember You" from Season One or whatever it was called, when Angel becomes human then finds himself weak and has to ask the Powers to change him back.

What I think I would love to have at the end of this season is, going off the earlier ideas of LA and/or the world being in chaos because there can be no apocolypses, is this idea that apocolypses don't always have to awful and destructive, they just usually are. Apocolypse means "unveiling" so what if at the end of the season, in order to save the world, Angel and Co. have to start an apocolypse. They have to reveal some kind of truth about the world in this apocolypse. They have to unveil something, something good. . .what is a harder question.
Also, it'd make a cool ending for the penultimate episode of the season. Or for an act break in the last episode.
Spike: What are we going to do?
Angel: The only thing we can. Tomorrow night, we're starting an apocolypse.

[Joss]

Lol, now That is Angel-like dialouge. At some point we also have to continue the discussion of whether the astronauts or the cavemen would win the fight.

[LizaP]

Angel signed away the Shanshu so I agree it's a less than important thing for season 6. I think the idea of creating an apocolypse is good "Joss".

Also, the survivors know the world is not black and white at all and they have to figure out how to recogize the lighter shades of gray to keep up the good fight. No one is around to get visions (been there done that) and I think none of them really know where to go to find direction. None of the humans survived so it's all up to the "aliens". Which is why I think (going back to an earlier post) new characters should be human.

Maybe the caveman/astronaut fight would be a good metaphor for season 6?