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Post by Doyle on Jun 5, 2004 23:28:52 GMT
I agree with ChrsgemATL, i think the reason you guys cant get this project off the ground... Whoa, waitaminute. It's been, like, a WEEK. We've been brainstorming and putting our energies into establishing our "ground rules" and basic foundation for the season. I don't think anyone here was under the delusion we'd be writing the first episode at this point. Progress is being made, it maybe slower than some may like, but we are moving ahead. It's when people come in without reading through the pre-existing threads and start posting their opinions on things we've already covered and discussed at some length do we become stalled and start running around in circles.
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Post by Joss on Jun 5, 2004 23:34:42 GMT
Lol, yes quite literally the first new members of this site joined this project precisly one week ago.
Now don't start thinking that this site sucks now, but don't think that all of us here are like Stephen King who can write a novel in ten days.
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Post by ChrsgemATL on Jun 5, 2004 23:57:09 GMT
Good points and heres my resolution to the questions brought up.
For starters i think everyone is under the assumption that TPB and all that know Angel think hes evil. TPB know hes not for the simple fact Cordy gave the vision to Angel of who was running the apocolypse. TPB have been giving Angel help all along the way through Cordy and the visions but things got muddled when they seemed to let Jasmine come about and hijack cordys body. The intention of the powers has been to stop the apocolypse from happening and I dont think just because Angel and company killed those running it that its automatically over. They imo need ANgel still and thats a reason for them to intervene. Just to use him, however, like i said I dont think they would unless they absolutly had to. HOWEVER, if we go that route it should really just be Cordy that intervenes breifly. Still, I really think that Angel had help on the way or someone heard what was going down and came to the rescue. Amy Acker said in an intervue that talks were to have OZ come back next season so here an idea I came up with. What if Oz and a small band of his friends/ werewolfs whatever came to intervene? Then we can go into what Oz has been up to and hows hes been fighting the good fight, ensembling his own crew etc. Does this seem too chessy though?? Another thought I had was Willow and just her comming since no one seems to like the idea of Slayerettes and Buffy.
Another thought is that they all fight and seems like they are going to win when another onslaught comes. They realize they need to get out the alley right? Heres three options, climb a fire escape to the roof which could be done with Ilyrian throwing a dumpster in the way to block them off and they make there way up. Again i think that maybe it would make sense to have Gunn die during this part, maybe setting up a last stand. Then we have the three left go up the to the roof where they will need to deal with the Dragon.
ANother option is have them go out through the sewers, escaping through a man hole.
Last option would be to go through that fence we saw behind them. I have to watch the finale again but i looked like it might open out on the street. If so Ilyrian can rip it down, they run off to ANgels car waiting for them. I think having Angel and co get to one of his cars waiting on the street would be the best idea after resolving getting them out the Alley. I was thinking we could have someone there at his car waiting, not an allie but an enemy, like a suprise person. Maybe have Lilah there to say something like you cant escape they will follow you everywhere and keep comming?
Just a thought.
Also, we could have them backtrack through the office. Didnt angel come out one of the side doors from WRH? Get down to the cars and escape that way.
But I digress I got off my main point. What happens have the slayers and Buffy dispatch the army of demons? Well Buffy would stay for a while or at least try to and knowing ANgel he would demand she leave with her friends because he never wants help. Hed be grateful but knowing that the SP were going to continully attack he would say she should leave. Buffy would get pissed, understand and then bounce. I was thinking that some slayers could stay to help out but that might seem cheesy too. ALso has anyone explore the Faith solution? ?? Faith was very loyal to Angel so I could see her and some buddies showing up?
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Post by ChrsgemATL on Jun 6, 2004 0:10:47 GMT
I'm sorry, but you're wrong. Check a few interviews with Joss and Jeffrey Bell (try Buffy.nu or slayerverse) and you will see that they have stated repeatedly that Buffy was never, ever intended to come back for the finale but for the episode "The girl in question". Sarah's schedule on "The Grudge" wasn't finished in time to appear in that episode, but she was done and back in the states in time for the finale....they just didnt want her then. They have said time and time again that they didn't want the show to become Buffy 2 with rampant guest stars and would keep such roles to a minimum (basically have someone come in during sweeps) so as not to dwarf the series regulars. In regards to S6, the only things we know for sure is that they were: (1) very heavily considering bringing Oz in, but as to what capacity (series regular or just guest star) we don't know. (2) Fred and Illyria were to be split with Amy Acker playing dual roles. (3) Willow was to guest star and be the one to split Fred/Illyria (4) the concept for the season was to be (paraphrasing) what happens when you go up against the system...and win?" (5) the first few epsiodes were rumoured to start a mini-arc taking place in a hell dimension (6) they would have liked to have Tony Head come in if they could work it in to the story. ...and thats all we have from the tidbits in interviews given near the end of the series. Again, check slayerverse, buffy.nu, whedonesque and all the other good archival type sites and re-check the information as you don't have to take my word for it -its all right there. In regards to the First making an appearance...I can't remember if it was Joss, David Fury, DeKnight or someone else entirely but they stated that that would NOT be happening as that was a Buffy story and was already wrapped up in that shows finale. They were very adamant about this point. The idea of the first comming back was MY idea, sorry if I didnt make that clear. I never read anything about that character comming back, this was just my thought. On the what we know about season six. You have everything right except this "Yes we would have liked Sarah, to come back this year but it just wasnt on her schedule, which is fine! We really were looking for her to come back next season for a six episode arc." You can find that on spoilerslayer.com in the news archives which originally came from AICN.com and Kristens TVguide interview. My point really wasnt to say that BUffy was going to come back but more to point out that they wanted her next year for six eps which would mean they had something big planned. Im just saying that whats so hard to believe that slayerettes with ANdrew and/or even GIles could come to the rescue? What about Faith though what was she up to again? I know Andrew covered all that but I missed exactly where everyone was at the time of his little catch up speach.
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Post by Joss on Jun 6, 2004 0:18:15 GMT
Another thought is that they all fight and seems like they are going to win when another onslaught comes. They realize they need to get out the alley right? Heres three options, climb a fire escape to the roof which could be done with Ilyrian throwing a dumpster in the way to block them off and they make there way up. Again i think that maybe it would make sense to have Gunn die during this part, maybe setting up a last stand. Then we have the three left go up the to the roof where they will need to deal with the Dragon. ANother option is have them go out through the sewers, escaping through a man hole. Last option would be to go through that fence we saw behind them. I like this idea of Gunn fighting off the demon hoards and dying a good death to give the other three a chance to escape. Why don't we have Illyria go down the sewers, Spike go through the fence, and Angel go up the fire escape. That way the episode could focus on three different story lines. Since it seems that we are going to do this episode in flashback mode, I was thinking that perhaps it could be done following the style of the Firefly episode "Out of Gas". Now, I gotta warn. A lot of people like the PTB solution, myself being among them. It seems like that's where we are going to go. If it doesn't pan out however this could be a way to do it. ALso has anyone explore the Faith solution? ?? Faith was very loyal to Angel so I could see her and some buddies showing up? A lot of people (about 95% of the site) are against the return of slayers. HOWEVER, back in the begining there were some people who were proposing that we have Faith return and become a regular. I like that idea, but I don't know what the majority will say about it.
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Post by Doyle on Jun 6, 2004 0:23:15 GMT
Good points and heres my resolution to the questions brought up. For starters i think everyone is under the assumption that TPB and all that know Angel think hes evil. I think in previous posts, the majority were in agreement that the PTB had decided to forego using Angel as his methods (citing his outrageous attack on the Black Thorn) proved to be too unpredicatable -not because they thought he was evil. This was going to tie into Drew's apocalypse concept as well as the new female character. When and if Oz is brought in, I think it would be more likely that Nina would somehow be tied in to his re-appearance being a werewolf herself. I had pitched the idea that Angel goes off to find her, only to learn she has grouped up with Oz's wolf pack. (remember its been some time (3 months since the finale). From there I assumed we'd find a way to seperate Oz from his group (slaughtered more likely, maybe a re-appeareance by Kane the hunter from Buffy? I think that was his name, I dunno, havent thought this out)and bring him and Nina back to L.A. for Oz to be a regular and Nina to either be killed or more likely be shifted back to recurring status. This would likely not be an option because if you remember the last time we saw the offices of W&H they were falling in on themselves. I could see bringing Faith in as I belive she is a better fit with Angel and Co. than she ever was with the scoobs. I don't think I'd want to see here this season in a regular cast sort of way, but a guest appearance may not be out of the question.
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Post by Doyle on Jun 6, 2004 0:26:07 GMT
Everyone is overlooking a crucial fact here: it was never their intent to escape. They had every intention of fighting to the death.
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Post by Joss on Jun 6, 2004 0:29:37 GMT
Oh yeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeaaaaaaaaaaaaaaahhhhhhhh... I'd forgotten about that.
So, it seems that PTB interventions is the way to go.
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Post by ChrsgemATL on Jun 6, 2004 0:48:50 GMT
Sorry I couldnt post right away was watching the finale again to get more insight. Something has come pretty clear. Hamilton in his stupidity said that he couldnt be defeated because he was part of the Wolf Ram and Heart. There power runs through my blood. ANgel says "can you pick the word out of there you shouldnt have said?" and bites him taking thier power into him. Soo heres my thought.
TPB intervenes, now this could be done one of two ways. A portal opens up and those weird demons that work for TBP come in to help fight. I cant remember for the life of me what they were called but they were in the ep when ANgel had to get that guy out of the box of fire, the ep when cordy dies on here Bday and ends up becoming part demon and in season 4 when they trap him in the lobby and he tells them there lives were all set up to bring about Jasmine....sorry went on a tangent... anyway....THey come in an fight and we have the battle. After disposing of the some of thearmy Angel thanks them for the help one of them says hey no problem, sieze them. Angel and Co are like WHat?! and they say sorry you need to come with us. Your too reckless and need to be delt with. Angel and co make a comment like oh ok and then attack them. We could have GUnn try to fight them off as Ilyrrian Spike and Angel try to escape through the fire escape and onto the roof. Heres where Gunn dies, think it would be very kewl to have him die at the hands of TPB. ALso we could work in another group of SP demons come in an TPB need to fend them off. So they get up to the roof and the dragon is there which ANgel attempts to slay. However just as they are done TPB demons catch up and someone how everything goes white, (or just have everything go white as ANgel goes after the dragon) The other option is to exlude anyone comming to the rescue and everything just goes white and they find themself in the dimension of the powers.
Heres where someone else will have to take over since im not sure how to handle this. I was thinking that since ANgel took Hamiltons blood and has the SP powers in him they could tell him that Angel is now too tainted and needs to be killed or locked up. I think the ep should be in a flashback as I like that idea and I think that Spike and Ilyrian should be in a cell in the beg of the episode. We could have spike thinking about what brought them there and go from there using the plot up top. What do you all think?
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Post by LizaP on Jun 6, 2004 0:48:50 GMT
Finally!! Agreement on having the PTB step in!
I like the idea of 3 different escapes and 3 different stories to get the heros back together - and I think one idea is to have the PTB pluck each one and set them in a different place - either a different dimension or a different part of LA or a different part of Earth. One of them could run into the PTB "replacement" for Angel (our older woman character, I liked the name Grace) and have her be the new source of information for how to keep fighting when the enemy is so scattered.
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Post by Joss on Jun 6, 2004 0:54:35 GMT
The demon was called "Skip". I don't remember what the name of the demon class was tho.
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Post by ChrsgemATL on Jun 6, 2004 0:58:37 GMT
The demon was called "Skip". I don't remember what the name of the demon class was tho. THATS IT! LOL it was driving me crazy. Im torn between what Ive said and what Liz posted. Maybe we should do what she said three different character escape stories but told in flashback showing how they were taken by TPB. I really like my idea of having "Skip" demons come in and they try to take them. Maybe then we could have three seperate escapes and go from there. I like that idea alot but what do you all think?
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Post by LizaP on Jun 6, 2004 1:08:23 GMT
Skip was a great character - and it was never really clear if he was totally evil or just a tool. And he's a familiar messenger of the PTB so no need to jump into a lot of explanation when he shows up.
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Post by Joss on Jun 6, 2004 1:10:30 GMT
Can't be done. Skip was the only case in which Wesley's pistols actually succeded in killing something. It could be something of Skpis' class, but not Skip himself.
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Post by ChrsgemATL on Jun 6, 2004 1:22:21 GMT
Yea exactly, couldnt be skip himself but demons like him.
So what do we have here:
Episode opens on flashback. Spike seeminly telling or thinking the story.
INtervention by TPB
Everyone doing escape acts and GUnn dying to help everyone escape. Hence three seperate stories.
Possibly putting them in a hell dimension/holding cell. But then how do we get them back to LA?? Thought maybe having them release all three of them because they realize TPB need them to stop SP final plans ?
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Post by Joss on Jun 6, 2004 1:26:19 GMT
Fighting their way out seems more to the liking of Spike and Angel... and I guess Illyria too...
But it could make an interesting story arc.
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Post by ChrsgemATL on Jun 6, 2004 1:31:46 GMT
So now where do WE go from here? lol
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Post by Drew on Jun 6, 2004 1:35:31 GMT
I don't think we can show the fight in the alley. Ever. Unless it comes at the end of an episode or hell, the end of the season, when we see a short flashback of something shocking happening, like. . .well, I can't think of anything remotely reasonable. I think Doyle said somewhere that showing the battle would be worse than anything our imaginations can come up with. And that's really smart. I think we need to remember that, and I think we need to drop the battle strategy once and for all. When we meet our characters at the beginning of this season, we need to meet them somewhere besides the alley. Also, I don't think any major plot points of this season should hinge on small details of last season. . .like Angel drinking the SP blood. I think we saw in S4 the limitations of an almost all on serialized format for the show. It was good, but Angel and Buffy have always worked best when the serialization isn't completely overbearing. I say we take the first ep to settle things and to also have a standalone type episode. that's what they did with "Heartthrob" and "Conviction." We can't just throw ourselves right into hardcore mythology right at the beginning, otherwise we're still ending last season and not beginning this one.
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Post by Joss on Jun 6, 2004 1:39:03 GMT
Chaos, complete and utter chaos.
The idea that most people are mostly in agreed with is that once the Fang Gang is able to escape from the PTB they return to LA, to the horror. The demons were not sent to kill them, but rather the imbalance from the separation of the Sp from this world has caused that the demons of LA go beserk, destroying everything in sight.
So Angel and Co. have to get back to work, in serious overdrive to try to sort out the chaos.
And that's what we have for now.
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Post by ChrsgemATL on Jun 6, 2004 2:13:28 GMT
Im ok with that and I still think everything should be in flashback form. Here and idea of how it could be done. WE could pull a illusion type deal like in "Home".
Everyone is in a bar including gunn living it up. Nina is with Angel and Anne is there sitting next to gunn. THey are telling all thier adventures and how they defeated the SP. We then flash to spike in prision being questioned by a demon. Hes being asked about the SP and everything he knows about WRH. Ilyrian is in a similar cell and being questioned as well. Shes not answering. Instead shes thinking about what happened. They are all fighting in the alley when they realize they cant win this way. Angel is seemingly uncaring as hes prepared to go out fighting. Behind them they hear a scream and see woman (through that gate, i saw the finale again and it opens onto a street) running from a demon. GUnn points out that they arent the only ones in danger and that if they dont defeat these guys, LA is a sitting duck. THis of course would have to be worked out a little better maybe hearing explosions and other things throughout the city?
Anyway after hearing this Angel realizes hes right and they cant fight this way. They all try to escape, each there own way. Gunn should die here but read my post on Gunns Character as I belive he cant just die. Read the post and your see why. EAch goes there own way, one through the sewers one through to the roof (angel so eh can go after the dragon) and Ilyrian through the fence. They fight along the way each coming to different people being attacked, defending them. We should probably have them all decide to meet up somewhere but regardles off tha point they should be taken by TBP. They are taken and at first they dont know why. They are told they started an attack on LA and tPB have had enough. We find out that strike one was letting the guy out of the box of fire. Strike two was the Jasmine thing (remember they were considered the bad guys because they killed humanities savior) and now this.
Ok...maybe im just writing cheese now maybe someone else should take over.
Anyway they are in a holding dimension till the powers decide what to do. Howevger they have to let out because without them on earth in LA, the chaos will spread and they send them back to fight. Here we have the begining of the season.
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