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Post by bisquick on Jun 4, 2004 0:09:39 GMT
one character Im really interested in is Gunn. at the end of the series, it was still unclear whether or not he still had his Legalese. either way, I think itd be interesting if maybe Gunn went to "the dark side" so to speak this season. He clearly feels underappreciated and wants some sorta power. could be interesting if he struck out on his own and slowly starting having new views about everything theyve been "fighting" for. Also, not to be a cynist(sp?) but if everyone on this site is talking 'bout ideas everywhere, I just dont understand where the suprise is gonna be. I mean , if everyone involved knows how the fic is gonna play out and what is intended for the characters, its doesnt seem like that much fun PuppetCancer out
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Post by Drew on Jun 4, 2004 2:33:13 GMT
I thought about that too. But it's something WE can't really get past. If we don't know what's going to happen, we can't write good stuff. I guess other people - who aren't involved - will have to enjoy it. I mean, that's what any writer has to think about. Plus, I know for myself, this is an exercise in doing what I would love to do someday. I would love to write for television. I would love to create television just like Joss. I'm not doing it for the surprise, I'm doing it for the work, itself.
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Post by LizaP on Jun 4, 2004 2:39:30 GMT
... and for the sheer pleasure of playing with Joss's creations.
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Dismas
Vampire with a Soul
Posts: 97
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Post by Dismas on Jun 4, 2004 2:53:09 GMT
The funny thing about "I Will Remember You" is that the writers act like they had it erased from their memory too. That episode was a blatant attempt to pull in strong sweeps ratings to establish the new series. Overall it was well executed, but the ending made it a cheat. I have no qualms about rehashing its ideas in a new way.
Bisquick, I kind of felt the same way about Gunn. I mentioned in another thread that if he suffered some kind of permanent, debilitating damage from the fight it could push his character in a darker direction. Heh, between crippling Gunn and humanizing Spike I'm apparently making it my priority to physically weaken as many characters as I can. It keeps the characters more interesting. On another note, the proposed idea of a woman who can kill with her mind sounds like a cool antagonist to our physically strong heroes.
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Post by Doyle on Jun 4, 2004 3:02:02 GMT
I don't know if I'd really call the ending to IWRY a cheat....I thought the end was one of the best and most emotional scenes we've ever seen on either show. It would only be a cheat if we actually believed Angel was going to stay human in the first place, but we all knew that that wasnt going to last. I dunno, its one of my favorite episodes though.
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Dismas
Vampire with a Soul
Posts: 97
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Post by Dismas on Jun 4, 2004 3:10:39 GMT
I call it a cheat because everyone, Angel especially, acts like it never happened. You can write whatever you want if you're just going to take it back at the end and ignore any possible consequences. In Not Fade Away, Angel says he can't remember being human, like IWRY never happened. Contrast with the alternate universe episode of Buffy (was it called "The Wish"?) It ended in a similar way, but the intruiging ideas about Willow's character weren't forgotten and Anya stuck around.
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Post by Doyle on Jun 4, 2004 3:13:24 GMT
That line in "Not Fade Away" really bothered me too at first. I think though, if we want to make the excuse for it, it can easily be written off as "Angel has gone through so much since then with Connor, Cordy, Fred, etc. that it just feels like lifetimes have passed..." or something.
It's a screw up, but those happen from time to time and can usually be given a spin. I know there have been references to that episode in the past, so I can hardly damn them for screwing up once.
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Post by bisquick on Jun 4, 2004 5:07:06 GMT
"IWRY" -personally, I dont think the ending to that 'ep was in anyway a "cheat". the only person it cheated was Angel. Not one of my faves, but I think its a great heartbreaker of an episode; and I think one of the purposes of it was to show how much of a "champ" Angel was, by doing what he did. Anyways, about season six. I strongly feel that no old ideas or stories should be re-hashed whatsoever. And I also thing WE ALL, whoever will be involved in structuring this season(heh, I love calling it a season), that is, should come to some logical reason of how the FOUR(including my man charlieboy) get out of that alley. I think the whole "glowing orb" or whatever it was idea somehad, about them being wisked away to some sorta "alt universe" is horrible. sorry, but I do. I think that is an insult to everyone involved. Personally, I think it insults our intelligence if we were to do something like that. itd kinda be like admitting defeat, IMO. Like we're saying "were not knowledgable enough of this universe or creative and clever enough to think of something better" The whole Alternate Universe thing is a disrespect, too IMO. Here me out. regarding the end of season 5(the alley) and ALSO regarding much of the season; this season should deal with starting over. picking up the pieces, and probably more important, the consequences of their actions. They ALL took the deal. They had everything. But now, Cordy is dead, Fred is dead, Wesley is dead. Lorne has been pushed to do things he would hve never done before. He should stay gone(thats what I think at least) And now they have nothing. the hundreds(maybe even thousands?) of employees they had are gone. Their contacts in Italy(and the rest of the world) are gone. they have no more fancy cars, no magic books that are limitless in resources; hell they probably cant even go back to the Hyperion. W&H probably had it demolished. So where do they from here? And again about Gunn- I think itd be very logical for him to make a transition to the "darkside" , so to speak. who knows if he has his Legal-ese or not. but if he doesnt, we know hes gonna be power hungry. and if he does, perhaps wed see him getting a bit of a swelled head as time went on, and maybe hed wanna go do his own thing. Maybe start his own business? Kinda like the way his old gang was, but of course, more fancy(for lack of better word), due to the knowledge he now possess. Besides, hes odd man out. Only four of them and hes the only human. This could make him pretty distant, IMO. I think these things are all good ideas. I mean, he made a deal, got an upgrade. All his real friends are gone(he's admitted b4 him and Angel arent the tightest) I think these things should be explored, I mean something has to happen with him. Like I said, consequences and repercussions. people change Buf before any of that, we need to figure out the alley. we need to tackle what is at hand, and come up with some sort of reasonable way for them to get out. IMO- no alt universes or "glowing orb" to transport them. no Slayers or Connor coming outta the woodwork. THEYRE ALL THEY HAVE they made their bed, their bed, bedroom, and house has been destroyed, and now they need to figure out where theyre gonna "lie", cuz theyre bed was destroyed, member? ? ? PuppetCancer out
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Post by Joss on Jun 4, 2004 12:54:15 GMT
Those are some good points you got there Puppet Cancer. Definetly the first thing we need to decide is the whole does Gunn live? issue.
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Post by jibberish on Jun 4, 2004 15:05:21 GMT
in regards to the alley, if 'they are all they got' and no one steps in to help, then they are dead; and it'd be hard to strecth an entire season out of the funeral. there is no possible way that they could have fought their way past tens of thousands of demons, even angel knew that much.
the suggestion of intervention by the powers was only made under the assumption that there is no other way to keep them alive. the point was that the powers remove them to keep them from further disrupting the balance between good and evil. placing them in a holding cell of questionable realities was meant to be a parallel between their perception of the will of the powers, and what the powers actually want.
so if there is no intervention of any kind, and assuming they didn't turn around and run away like little girls, gunn just isn't gong to make it out. period. he was already bleeding to death for goodness sake! to suggest that he lasts through the hours it would take to kill all those demons as a mere human with a mortal wound, now THAT insults our intelligence!
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Post by ChrsgemATL on Jun 5, 2004 3:44:45 GMT
Hey All,
Just had something to share. Since the end of Angel i have turned to fan fic to fill my cravings for the buffverse. I really would love to read a sixth season of Angel or hell even Buffy at this point but there is NOTHING good on the internet or book stores these days. I came across you guys and figured what the helll why wait for someone to write a new ANgel episode/story when you can be a part of it. So.....lets look at this logically. Heres what we now about the sixth season of Angel if it was to happen:
BUffy would have been back for a sixth ep arc. The series finale ended just as any season would. So we can use season 5 as a jump off persay.
Willow and Giles were slated to come back.
Now heres what I think what would have happened if we had another season to look forward to and I hope this helps you guys in writing:
Season 6 would have opened with the fight in the alley. Angel, will be strong as hell due to taking Hamiltons blood. Spike, being Spike will be fine during the fight but take some series blows. Ilyrian will kick major ass and toss most of the villians aside. Gunn seems to be the problem. I really think that he will fight and just as hes about to get killed intervention comes. Slayers show up (with Andrew) to help out when all is lost. Buffy herself I believe would show up and start the six ep from the begining. Best to get her out of the way in the begining as to let ANgel shine though to the end. After the battle in the ALley is over is really all going to be about the reprocutions of going after the senior partners. Demons continue to attack on behalf of the SPs as ANgel and rem cast grief.
THe whole final season is about Angel trying to take the SP down and how the SP (royaly pissed) try to take ANgel out. THe fred/Ilyrian thing will be resolved as somehow Freds soul will be restored and there will be an Ilyrian/Fred sharing the same body type deal. THe details will have to be worked out but we will get to that. Spike will think as well as everyone including Angel, that he is the one talked about for the shanshu prophecy. The twist throughout this whole thing is that certain "dead characters" ie Darla, Doyle, Lilah, start showing up to to annoy and put their two sense in about ANgel going up against the senior partners. Giles should return after BUffy goes back to England and is soon visited by the ghost of Jenny Calander who tells him to leave and that the end is near; he cant get involved. Of course he almost falls for it but realizes that its not Jenny but the First, just as it was for Doyle and Darla. Thats about as far as ive gotten with the idea of a sixth season. Will post more thoughts as they come and try to help out when writes block comes lurking around.
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Post by LizaP on Jun 5, 2004 7:03:58 GMT
I may be the only one who REALLY doesn't like the ideas of the slayers coming in to save the day - but the ideas sucks. Why would Buffy & all save a group that they don't really trust any more? Why would the SP - who have been keeping Angel alive for 5 seasons - suddenly desert him?
I prefer the idea of the PTB stepping in and taking action - it would be more in ture with what Angel was all about and frankly, I personally think that it makes sense historically. In the Angel universe, that is.
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Post by Joss on Jun 5, 2004 15:03:58 GMT
Same here.
Sorry to say man, it is just plain cheesy to just have Buffy and her army of slayers to show up, at the percise moment that Angel and co. need help. Plus I believe it just could not happen for this reason:
Buffy and Co. think that Angel and Co. are evil now that they have taken over Wolfram&Hart. Andrew said it quite clearly in "Damage". Yes, Angel proved to be "not-evil" at killing the Circle of the Black Thorn. But Buffy would not show up because: 1. It is impossible for the news of all that happened to Angel to reach Buffy in the hour or so that passed between the assasinations and the alley battle. 2. Even if somehow they were able to get the news and figure out that Angel is goody-goody then they would need about a Mach 18 jet to get them to LA in time to save them from the army of demons.
Lastly, remember Angel had everyone beleiving that he was evil a short while ago. He was only able to tell Spike and the other through a loop in time. Buffy and Co. must beleive him to be as evil as it gets during the events of Not Fade Away.
PS: Sorry if I was too harsh and/or insiulting. that was never my intention.
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Post by Drew on Jun 5, 2004 16:23:39 GMT
I completely agree with Joss and LizaP. No Slayers. No senior partners. And defininitely no The First. One season of them was enough.
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Post by bisquick on Jun 5, 2004 17:25:13 GMT
ditto
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Post by ChrsgemATL on Jun 5, 2004 18:14:48 GMT
Not harsh at all but i have somethings to add.
First the rough plan I gave (excluding jenny calander and the first comming into play latter in the season) was Joss Whedons original intention. Buffy and Co WAS suppossed to come back for the final scenes of the finale for a clifhanger. In many interviews Joss and David B. said that they wanted BUffy to come back for the finale but when she couldnt for filming of her movie they said it was ok. Joss and the writers didnt change much if anything for the final ep. I figured if your gonna do another season of Angel do what Joss would and was going to do. Work with what we have.
Secondly, alot of you may not like it but oh well tough thats what the plan was and it was set up that way. Angel mentions during the time loop scene after they go after the black thorn the SP were going to come after all of them FULL FORCE. They expected the army of demons, in fact they knew it would be so bad they told their loved ones ie Nina and Anne to leave town. This is just how Buffy ended. She told ANgel that he needed to hold up the second front if BUffy and co failed. Actually i really think that WEsley knowing he was going to die made the call to Giles, just my opinion. But if you watch the series finale again you will see that Angel in the begining (quite out of the blue too) says that one of you will betray me and before the scene with hamilton he tells Harmony he knew it would be her all along. So as for keeping it secret he just needed to keep it secret long enough to get into the Black Thorn and find out the members. It looks pretty obvious to me that ANgel knew all along what would happen from Harmony telling Hamilton to him going up against hamilton just to take his blood. I know for some people its like Angel was its own show and BUffy and co dont have any place there but well no not really. After Buffy ended Joss intended to use the ANgel series to tell the end of Buffy and Angels story lines.
So the question boiles down to do you want to tell the story that joss wanted to tell or do you want to tell the story that YOU want to tell.
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Post by gogogirl on Jun 5, 2004 18:27:02 GMT
I agree with ChrsgemATL, i think the reason you guys cant get this project off the ground is becuase you are tying to figure out how to make the characters survive the SP army of demons without having any of the old Buffy people come back. The set up was to have them come back so its hard to try and change it without it seeming like you ignored the season.
As for TPB why is everyone talking about them intervening?? WHen did they EVER? Did everyone miss last year? They were under last years Big Bad Jasmines spell. Set up Cordy to become a demon and a power just so jasmine could hijack her body later. TPB only gave Cordy visions and that was it. They really never intervened on a large scale like sending armies to the rescue or anything.
I think everyone is trying to hard.
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Post by ChrsgemATL on Jun 5, 2004 18:42:16 GMT
Well i dont know if I disagree with the Powers that be comeing to the rescue. I mean they really havent, ever, in the past but they owe Cordy after last year. I just dont see how they could. Heres an idea. Just as they go to fight all goes white and the four of them are in a room or something. Before them stands Cordy who is all bathed in light. They are in the same dimension of TPB and Cordy has taken them out to avoid them from dying. I think that someone else has already brought up this senario but its the only one that doesnt insult our inteligence. What else could they do? Only other thing they could do is notify someone from Buffys crew to come to the rescue and thats already been dismissed. So Cordy took them out but cant keep them safe forever right? She tells them that she can put them back but it will be days later and they are going to have to go on without the helfp of anyone else. AND WFH will be after them every step of the way. So the first ep will be all about picking up the pieces and figuring out what to do next. There now what to do after that is the question.
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Post by Joss on Jun 5, 2004 20:29:20 GMT
Okay people, I really don't think that if the PTB intervene it will be because of "OH MY GOD, that guy that has helped us so much is in danger, let's save him!"
The Powers that Be function not for the greater good, not for the greater evil, but for for the balance that will allow them to keep their fat asses in charge of everything. If the PTB decide to remove Angel and Co. from Earth it will be to keep them from further disrupting the balance, a abduction if you will. Of course for this to work then Angel and Co. would need to spend some time escaping from (insert wherever the hell the PTB will send them for containment).
Another problem I have with the slayers and Buffy showing up is the "What next". Let's say, completly hypothetically, that we did use the slayer army. So yeah, the army and Angel defeat the demons and then... what? What happens with that army? Do Buffy and Angel just say "Hey thanks for saving me." and then she says "No problemo, but we really gotta go because I gotta get back to Dawn and the Immortal. bye" I mean, why does the army leave? Hell, if they already came this far why don't they just stick around and help Angel and Co. for the season and just become a part of Angel Investigations.
Once again, sorry if it was too harsh/insulting. Never my intention, didn't mean to insult ANYONE.
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Post by Doyle on Jun 5, 2004 23:17:47 GMT
Not harsh at all but i have somethings to add. First the rough plan I gave (excluding jenny calander and the first comming into play latter in the season) was Joss Whedons original intention. Buffy and Co WAS suppossed to come back for the final scenes of the finale for a clifhanger. In many interviews Joss and David B. said that they wanted BUffy to come back for the finale but when she couldnt for filming of her movie they said it was ok. Joss and the writers didnt change much if anything for the final ep. I figured if your gonna do another season of Angel do what Joss would and was going to do. Work with what we have. I'm sorry, but you're wrong. Check a few interviews with Joss and Jeffrey Bell (try Buffy.nu or slayerverse) and you will see that they have stated repeatedly that Buffy was never, ever intended to come back for the finale but for the episode "The girl in question". Sarah's schedule on "The Grudge" wasn't finished in time to appear in that episode, but she was done and back in the states in time for the finale....they just didnt want her then. They have said time and time again that they didn't want the show to become Buffy 2 with rampant guest stars and would keep such roles to a minimum (basically have someone come in during sweeps) so as not to dwarf the series regulars. In regards to S6, the only things we know for sure is that they were: (1) very heavily considering bringing Oz in, but as to what capacity (series regular or just guest star) we don't know. (2) Fred and Illyria were to be split with Amy Acker playing dual roles. (3) Willow was to guest star and be the one to split Fred/Illyria (4) the concept for the season was to be (paraphrasing) what happens when you go up against the system...and win?" (5) the first few epsiodes were rumoured to start a mini-arc taking place in a hell dimension (6) they would have liked to have Tony Head come in if they could work it in to the story. ...and thats all we have from the tidbits in interviews given near the end of the series. Again, check slayerverse, buffy.nu, whedonesque and all the other good archival type sites and re-check the information as you don't have to take my word for it -its all right there. In regards to the First making an appearance...I can't remember if it was Joss, David Fury, DeKnight or someone else entirely but they stated that that would NOT be happening as that was a Buffy story and was already wrapped up in that shows finale. They were very adamant about this point.
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