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Post by Joss on Jun 2, 2004 2:25:43 GMT
Drew is right guys, we need to make this is hard as possible on everyone, on Angel, on Illyria, eve on ourselves. We need to do the opposite of electricity, take the path of most resistance. If it is easy to create or write then it isn´t the way to go.
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Post by tyuun on Jun 2, 2004 3:03:49 GMT
Let me get this straight
-No splitting of Fred/Illyria sounds good but Illyria is instead reluctantly getting in touch with her "Fred" side
-Willow should not be a cast member but a special guest is good
-If the Black Thorn with the SP's powers on earth then the gang should try moving up the ladder. We took out the Black Thorn so whats next. There has to be another step on the ladder, I mean we are getting closer to taking the SP out
-Are we to assume they are just the best of friends now-a-days or just going with the flow? Cordy, Wes, Gunn, Fred and Angel were all friends but now it's just Angel, Spike and Illyria. Angel doesn't like either of them. Spike doesn't like Angel but doesn't hate Illyria and I don't think Illyria cares too much for either of them
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Post by Drew on Jun 2, 2004 5:27:00 GMT
My feeling is that they won't have time to dwell on feelings for one another - at least at the very beginning, right after the fight (if we don't jump a few months ahead). They're just fighting right now. Angel and Spike are alike in many ways, which means that they will always bicker. As for Illyria, I think Angel will soon see that he's got a being here that can feel emotions. She did kill one of his friends, though. So tension.
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Post by Drew on Jun 2, 2004 5:32:16 GMT
Okay, can I suggest we move the Fred/Illyria discussion to the Fred Section in Ideas (it's not in Characters, for some reason - if that whole section can be moved, that'd be cool)
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Post by befound on Jun 2, 2004 13:47:27 GMT
How WILL ANgel and the others / humanity / everyone in the universe survive this monstrous threat. Maybe that should be the focus. i mean the show ended with such a cliffhanger we have to make sure we honour it. the part i liked about what you said is how humanity and everyone else in the universe are going to deal with it i think it would be a great idea to show mankind attempting to fight against it all for once and not just angel
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Dismas
Vampire with a Soul
Posts: 97
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Post by Dismas on Jun 3, 2004 0:34:02 GMT
I don't think Angel, Spike, Gunn, and Illyria are strong enough to survive a battle against an army and I don't like the idea of a deus ex machina rescue. Instead I think it makes sense if the main target of the Senior Partners counter attack is Los Angeles itself instead of Angel, kind of like what jibberish proposed. Angel and the others are able to survive and escape, but hundreds of people are killed because of what they did. The theme of the series has been that you keep fighting for what's right, even if it's hopeless. Season 6 could explore the additional idea that in this fight you need to make the right choices.
I didn't like Gunn in past seasons because his character felt underwritten, but his development in S5 worked for me. I'd hate to see him die offscreen. I think he should survive, but he should be permanently damaged or crippled in some way. Suppose he was blinded in the fight? (Is that too much like what Caleb did to Xander?) Learning to adapt pushes his character in new directions. Learning to live with a realistic disability is something the shows haven't done before.
I really like the idea of Fred's persona slowly emerging from within Illyria. I think after the battle Illyria will try to set out on her own because she's afraid of facing more grief if she gets close to more people. Random Fred-like outbursts will make her unable to escape humanity and pull her back to the others. Splitting Fred and Illyria sounds like a fun idea for one episode, but Fred should stay dead.
(How about this for an episode - an attempt to split Illyria/Fred also splits the other characters: Angel/Angelus, Good Spike/Evil Spike/William/, Nina or Oz/their werewolf)
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Post by Joss on Jun 3, 2004 1:24:26 GMT
That episode idea you have could work out Dismas, IF DONE CORRECTLY.
First off it would have to be done ala Spin the Bottle, a spell that was only supposed to affect one of the group but instead ends up taking it's toll on everyone because of (insert X factor in here).
Secondly, the fight would have to be in their minds, their subconcious. Think Angel vs. Angelus in Orpeheus.
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Post by Joss on Jun 3, 2004 1:27:26 GMT
Now as for Gunn being disabled:
Yes, blind is way too close to Caleb for my comfort. Aside I don't think that it could happen. Mainly because Caleb was methodical, scheming, he meant to aim for the eyes. I don't think that those crazed demons are gonna be cool enough to aim for the eyes.
Now, maybe Gunn is a wheelchair... permanently....
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Post by LizaP on Jun 3, 2004 6:50:37 GMT
Gunn's wound was mortal and I think he should die fighting, the way he would have wanted to.
The idea of post- apocolyptic LA is cool - finding order or a semblance of order in chaos - that might work as a metaphor for the season - and it'd be easier to write than the caveman/astronaut metaphor I mentioned on another thread.
How do you find your way with no landmarks?
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Post by Doyle on Jun 3, 2004 6:54:13 GMT
You nailed it -they eventually realize they have to create a new order out of the chaos.
The problem with bucking the system is you quickly learn that it really was there for a reason. ;D
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Post by LizaP on Jun 3, 2004 7:11:03 GMT
They will need help from new sources if the old system and all it's references is gone - and they will need a new knowlege they can trust and building that trust would be a first arc. Doesn't have to be a person, it could be some source like the old watcher's council or the old wolfram & hart - some non-person source that needs checking because you're just not totally sure the information is good all the time. They need to figure out how to recognize a landmark.
The idea of splitting all the characters into good/bad for one episode is one way to find out how much of the good is in each of them and how to deal with the bad.
I still think they need a distant observer who can set them straight every now and then. I'm still plugging for the older human character.
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Post by Drew on Jun 3, 2004 9:31:40 GMT
I have an issue with the post-apocolyptic LA. Well, the reasons are that I'm still rooting for the whole "you prevented the apocolypse and, interestingly enough, that's a bad thing, now there's chaos because there's no one to order it and to run things to try and make an apocolypse, so what you have to do is start your own apocolypse...but a good one!" That could even be a line of dialogue. . .I'm kidding, of course. So I'm all for chaos, just not the apocolyptic kind. I think a great scene toward the beginning could be Angel, Spike, and someone who knows what's going on (like the prophecy writer I mentioned somewhere) Prophecy Guy: I don't think you fully understand what you've done. Angel: Well, c'mon, I mean it can't be that bad. I mean it's not like it's- (Prophecy guy throws open a window revealing chaos and fire in the streets of LA. They stare into the mess they've made.) Spike: Apocolyptic? Prophecy Guy (despondently): No. . .it's really, really not. Act Break! See, the irony is that it's bad and yet not apocolyptic. So they have to start a good apocolypse. I know I'm beating this point to death. I just find it fascinating. It turns the whole apocolypse concept on its head. And what with the prophecies about Angel's role - will he be on the side that starts the apocolypse or on the side that prevents it? A weird, twisted ending would be if Spike stopped this Good Apocolypse and achieved Shanshu. I think it lends itself to a lot of unexpected twists. Okay, sorry, I got off track. The problem I have with LA just having experienced massive destruction and chaos is that TPTB wanted Angel to do what he did. But I guess it can be explained by the fact that they were just setting him up to do what he will do this season - mainly starting a good apocolypse. Is anyone else getting the feeling that I love this Good Apocolypse idea? I'll shut up now.
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Post by Doyle on Jun 3, 2004 9:38:01 GMT
Drew, I'm a 100% with you on the apocalypse angle. I really, really dig it. However, I think rather than introducing a new character (prophecy writer) we take the oppourtunity to bring back Sirk and Eve and tie up some loose ends. I think it would be interesting to find out Sirk had some other intentions of hooking up with Eve and Lindsey than either of those 2 characters knew. I think we need to go into this season a little heavy (ala S4) soften in the middle and go bolloks out toward the big finish tail end. Sirk and Eves presence would obviously help facilitate that. I like the idea of the "good apocalypse" (for lack of better term) and it makes a lot of sense. I stated somewhere else here "What happens if you buck the system? You quickly realize why there was a system" or something to that affect. I really think thinks are starting to gel around here. ;D
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Post by Drew on Jun 3, 2004 10:09:10 GMT
Cool. I'm glad you like the apocolypse thing.
I'll need some convincing on the Eve and Sirk thing. To me, they are two loose ends that I have little interest in. Sirk, i think, is just such a one-time character, and Eve. . .Eve just needs to go. Lady got on my nerves. I just feel all for getting some new characters in here. Like a new beginning for Angel. That's how I think of this season.
I feel like the Prophecy guy could be replaced by the older woman/former Power that I just posted about in. . .in some other part of this board. I've already forgotten. I'm signing out for the night.
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Post by Doyle on Jun 3, 2004 10:22:03 GMT
Sirk and Eve: Logistically, Eve has nothing else now that Lindsey is gone and she's going to want revenge. She failed to work and be interesting as the liason, maybe we can make her suceed by making her a vamp? (not lierally...you get that right? lol) As for Sirk, I liked him in "home" and was quite happy to see him show back up in S5 when I thought they had forgotten him. He has such a great presence on screen and from what we know of Lindsey and Eve it'd be intersting to find out what sort of person they got to team up with them and more importantly why? I just think certain aspects were rushed in S5 for obvious reasons and would like to give them a chance to come to fruition. That all said, how about this: Eve and Sirk ambush the gang, eve is obviously there for revenge, but sirk (who may be working with wash...hmmm...) is seeming more concerned with "what they did". Of course the gang finds a way out of the situation and decided to investigate what exactly Sirk was talking about, even though they would have a pretty strong feeling at that point. So Angel tries to contact the PTB, but is thrown out on his butt with little more information spilled. They eventually meet up with the older woman (who seriously needs a name -think "names of other things" like Whedon i.e. Willow, Spike, Faith, Glory, Trick, etc.) who then spills the sitch. Heck that could basically be the first ep right there. I really would like the first ep be devoted to them learning that they may have royally f'd up -and I'd like to use the title "winning" cause its....very Whedon I think to do so in that scenario. Thoughts?
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Dismas
Vampire with a Soul
Posts: 97
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Post by Dismas on Jun 3, 2004 11:12:46 GMT
If LA is post-apocalyptic with a power vacuum, Illyria would recognize this as an opportunity to seize power for herself.
I like the idea of the team finding a new source of moral direction, especially if it turns out to be manipulating them.
Sirk and Eve are ok characters, but they're too small for the primary villians. Also, I think some time should pass instead of having them pop in right after the battle.
I like the idea of the older woman so far.
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Post by LizaP on Jun 4, 2004 2:19:01 GMT
Drew & Doyle, I like the way you think about the "good apocolypse" - perfect example of something being more that what we thought it was all along.
RE: the older woman - if her role is a former PTB, how about something along the lines of a Greek character for a name - like Cassandra who if you remember had the gift of prophecy and the curse of having no one believe her prophecies.
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Post by Drew on Jun 4, 2004 6:10:48 GMT
So we've been talking like LA will be in chaos right from the very beginning of the season. But is this realistic? How could it happen so fast. Suddenly, the SPs have little power over our realm and - just like that (snap my fingers) - all the demons go nuts? I think it would need some time to build up. If it didn't, we'd definitely need a breather in the season at some point - I'm talking a good chunk of the season, like a third. Why would that happen? If we set the 1st ep a few months after "Not Fade Away" then we have the same problem of no breather, plus, we'd lose the buildup in those lost months and I think suspense is a lot more entertaining than just action and fighting. So do we have a buildup or do we throw them into chaos and then have a breather? I'm not sure which is better? The former is more familiar. The latter is something we haven't seen before. But I'm not sure how that will work yet. When you plot, you have to have beats.
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Post by bisquick on Jun 4, 2004 7:20:33 GMT
the chaos theory might be a good one. but I think it would take time to develop, cant just throw everything into upheaval at once. also, IMO, the chaos things has kinda been done already. In season 4, with the quakes, and rats, and birds into windows and everything.
Sirk-I dont think he should come back. he was part of w&h , and I guess theyre gone now...at least the l a branch.
Same for Eve. besides, I tend to believe that shes dead
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Post by LizaP on Jun 6, 2004 1:04:04 GMT
I think we should build the chaos - it really never happens overnight - Portents of Doom usually take a while to manifest. And maybe we could have Oz come back to town from say Arizona to tell Angel that the chaos or apocalypse has spread outside LA.
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