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Post by Drew on Jun 1, 2004 3:07:20 GMT
I always had an idea about the Shanshu. . .and this may go against one of its little technicalities. I'm not sure.
So let's say Spike gets Shanshu and it makes him human. What if it made him a 150 year old human - or however old he is. You know, he would get Shanshu and then start aging really fast and then he would still turn to bones and ash - just like a vampire. So basically Shanshu would be death/re-birth and then death again, depending on how old you are. It would restore you to your actual human age as if you lived all your human years while you were a vampire. It could make for a very sad and surprising ending. Just a thought about it though. I'm of the opinion to leave Shanshu out of Season 6.
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Post by tyuun on Jun 1, 2004 3:08:36 GMT
Did we ever really find out what Wolfram & Harts BIG PLANS for Angel were. We should deal with that maybe they have something to do with Angel splitting from Angelus (I really love that idea by the way).
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Post by Doyle on Jun 1, 2004 3:13:16 GMT
I think the Shanshu and the W&H's big plans should remain unknown. The finale was really about the fight would always continue and season 6 was to be about "moving on" basically, and I think relying on things such as those, that were such core elements to the past of the series, will only stall what was to inevitably be an evolution of the series as a whole. That said, I don't think the Shanshu should be forgotten about 100%, but maybe not brought up till the Seasons finale...if even then. Let it lie for a while.
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Post by Angelus on Jun 1, 2004 3:21:47 GMT
Or maybe the Senior Partners had a scenario that involved Connor, the offspring of two vampires have must have be mentioned in a prophecy somewhere...
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Post by tyuun on Jun 1, 2004 3:39:15 GMT
Do we intend on having anything to do with The Powers that Be? I mean do they exist on a similar plane that the Seniors Partners aree on. It seems to be they are in a way connected. Exact opposites.
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Post by Joss on Jun 1, 2004 3:39:20 GMT
Guys I know that I am getting way ahead of myself but wouldn´t it be great if our season ended like this:
Angel, having finished his task, looks back at Spike and Buffy (or whoever the hell is left with him and alive at the end) he smiled and then he just...
Steps into sunlight and bursts into flames....
Wouldn´t it be just an increbibly tragic end for our hero at the end of all days?
EDIT: Lol! Apparently some people thought that I meant this as Angel accidentaly steps into sunlight. I meant it is a suicide deal.
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Post by ShinyOne on Jun 1, 2004 3:55:50 GMT
I think the Shanshu prophecy was not really signed away. I don't remember seeing Angel sign his name before, but I think he didn't really sign his name. What makes me think of that was the joke thrown in about helping Connor with his resume. He said he has really nice handwriting.
I really like the idea of separating Angelus from Angel, but it also raises quite a few questions. If there is a split, what would happen if Angel were to have his moment of true happiness again - which may be moot since Buffy seems to be the only one who can make him truly happy (what was wrong with Nina I wonder?). If Angel without a soul is not Angelus, then who would he be?
I also think Gunn should not survive. I love Gunn and hate to see him go, but can't seem him surviving that battle with the injury he already had. I'm also not crazy about the idea of them getting whisked away. Who would be left to clean up the mess? When Buffy died the Scoobies were left to handle the demons that came through the portal. Letting the demons from this battle roam free would be a bad idea.
I do think some new characters would be good - some slayers would be awesome, since they are running out of super-powered-yet-human chicks. A reconciliations with Buffy and the rebuilt Council would be in order, now that Angel and all turned on W&H.
As far as a big bad - isn't there a Hellmouth in Chicago?
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Post by ShinyOne on Jun 1, 2004 19:31:52 GMT
Woah - have to disagree with you on that last thing Faux-Joss. Yes it would be tragic, but to end our hero's story on a "Whoops!" - that's terrible!
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Post by jibberish on Jun 1, 2004 19:37:54 GMT
splitting angel and angelus sounds redundant. we've already been there before in the show, and it seems to me that the dichotomy was somewhat resolved through angel's morally ambiguous actions towards the end of season five. angel was always the champion, angelus was always the murderer, but the angel that walked out of wolfram and hart was something of both. we find resolution in the gray area that he chose to walk for the greater good; where he became both and also neither. angel has compromised himself now becoming something of a fallen hero. that's the angle that should be played; especially if the PTB pull them out of the fight from the finale(as dicussed elsewhere on this site).
i would suggest that angel and company get saved by the PTB becos the Powers deem them too important to their larger plans. the consequence though is that LA gets destroyed by the demon hoards. angel and crew are held captive by the PTB, but escape and find a way back to earth. only a few days have passed for them but it has been months on earth, and things have literally gone to hell. we can spend a few episodes with angel coming to terms with what he's done, trying to justify his actions and use them to set up our new chartacters (vigilantes are sure to rise out of the ashes...gwen, oz, etc), and our new villains. i prefer corporeal big bads, so i'd like to see a reestablishment of the circle of the black thorn(the power vacuum would be too great to be left empty for long, and there had to be others vying for those positions too).
the middle of the season could be used to flesh out the sub-plots. i'd like to see illyria forced into a new body and fred's soul put back where it belongs. spike nursing fred back to health afterwards could lead to a romance that could make illyria jealous to the point that she turns on everyone. oz would need a good arc too, i'd like to see him lose his werewolf-itis. it would be a good parallel to the splitting of fred's two halves, versus angel who came to terms with his two halves, and then oz chosing one over the other.
the over-riding theme would be duality, and this could be expressed between the Powers and the Senior Partners. if they are two aspects of the same entity or group of beings then it seems to me that thier own struggle would parallel that of angel and company. the fate of the powers and the resolution to the season could then ultimately fall into the hands of angel who has three choices: merge, split or choose one over the other.
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Post by tyuun on Jun 1, 2004 19:49:22 GMT
I don't like the idea of splitting Fred from Illyria but if thats what we decide so be it. But I do like that idea that the PTB and SP are at odds with each other. Heaven vs. Hell. I'm cool with the PTB stepping in during the final fight but I'm not sure LA should be destroyed. I really really believe that the ultimate way to go out would be with Angel in PTB corner and Angelus in the SP corner. I mean the ultimate bad guy is and always has been Angelus so we need to get rid of him for good thus ending the saga of Angel.
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Post by WilliamtheBloody on Jun 1, 2004 20:22:56 GMT
I agree with tyuun, the idea of splitting Illyria and Fred is useless. Fred has no use in returning. Also, Fred would just wake up to a rude awakening, finding out that Gunn and Wes were dead. And as far as Spike and Fred falling in love just wouldn't work. Spike is still and probably always will be in love wiht Buffy. I do agree with the Angel/Angelus split. The idea of the Demon/Shamen guy working for W&H is good. I also think they should discover another prophecy about Connor and Angelus, but also one about Angel and Angelus. Thats just an idea, but i think Connor deserves a starring role again.
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Post by Doyle on Jun 1, 2004 20:46:24 GMT
I disagree. Fred's rude awakening is exactly what we would want. As I've stated before it really fits the theme of the season and it takes the character to a place we've never really seen her before. Sure, we've seen her go nuts, but we've never really explored "dark fred" before. And no, I'm using the term somewhat tongue in cheeky, I don't mean having her go all wesley on us. lol. I just mean take her character to a dark place. I mean, how would you feel having your life destroyed by a useless god wearing your face and then being forced to work with her, not to mention the two men you really loved and were closest to being dead and gone? I would have loved to see Amy Acker do this.
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Post by jibberish on Jun 1, 2004 21:17:53 GMT
i think amy acker would have been brilliant playing fred trying to reconnect with her former life after having gone through all that trauma. it would be a very compelling arch to see her try to reclaim some semblance of normalcy.
anyways, in my previous post i suggested destroying LA only becos i read that S6 was intended to be more or less "post-apocalyptic." ...and it follows that if the PTB save angel from the fight, that the demons aren't just going to go home, they're going to wanna break stuff!
anyways, why is there such a need to rehash old ideas. what's wrong with going in new directions? we don't need more prophecies, or to bring back angelus....again! .... and whose to say spike will ALWAYS be in love with buffy. i thought the point of this little venture was to create something, not recycle.
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Post by Joss on Jun 1, 2004 22:31:39 GMT
Jibberish, you are 100% right. We, particularly ME, have been using a lot of old and proven ideas. We need to start thinking wild. Not "Angel wakes up one days and discovers he was turned into a giant ant" wild, but you get the idea, come up with something that has NEVER been done on either Buffy or Angel. I know that I am sounding like a hypocrite because I post a lot of old ideas so I apologize.
Now, my take on the whole Fred/Illyria issue: I am willing to back it up 100% with one condition. It is not done like, Willow shows up, thinks that separating Fred and Illyria is a good idea and those a fifteen second spell that does that.
We need to set it up, not jump the gun. You know, Illyria begining to demonstrate traits of Fred. First off the incredible grief she feels for Wesley. Then she begins to sub-consciously turn to Fred´s form. This could lead to the discovery that there was some residual soul left in Fred´s shell. Then we could have something separate the enities.
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Post by Doyle on Jun 1, 2004 22:44:12 GMT
I kinda figured as a subplot for the firs several episodes, we would slowly see Illyria/Fred becoming schizophrenic and it eventually gets to the point where something has to be done. Then they call willow and seperate the two. I never assumed we'd just do it and be done.
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Post by Joss on Jun 1, 2004 22:50:39 GMT
I know, just saying that to be complely safe.
I´ve been very careful with this type of return since Buffy season 6. The real Joss Whedon lost some major points in my book by the way Buffy was brought back. It just seemed way too... easy. So I want something a little bigger here if we´re going to develop this idea.
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Post by Gorilla on Jun 1, 2004 23:42:39 GMT
Just want to say, i'm against the splitting up of Fred and Illyria. Wes clearly said that Fred's soul was destroyed, I think we probaly should leave it at that. It has been said that we should do something wild, why don't we tell the whole story from the "Big Bad's" prespective. We see Angel as the hero because the story is told from his prespective, lets try telling it from the enemy's view. If even for an episode. Let the flaming of my idea begin.
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Post by Joss on Jun 1, 2004 23:48:51 GMT
(takes out a hose and begins to soak Gorila´s idea with gasoline. then grabs a flamethrower and fires)
No, actually I think that it is a good idea, since we are thinking that maybe a theme could be duality this would be a good contrast. It could only be for an episode of course, but it could be a good episode.
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Post by WilliamtheBloody on Jun 2, 2004 1:30:34 GMT
I'm not exactly trying to say Spike wll always be in love with Buffy, I'm just saying if you refer to some of the episodes in Buffy, Spike doesn't just give up with something. But I also couldn't see Spike volenteering to aid anyone back to health. He would be the one out fighting. It's been seen that Spike has something for Fred, back in the beginning of season 5(when Spike was incorporeal). But I think it would take Fred a really long time to get over the death of Gunn and Wes. I also can't see Angel trusting Spike with anyone, let alone Fred. I just think that Angel and Co. don't exactly NEED Fred anymore. I still think Illyria should stay, no Fred.
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Post by Drew on Jun 2, 2004 2:18:02 GMT
It really seems to me that the best thing to do with Fred and Illyria is to not have both characters but to just have the combo of the two - a completely new character, like the one that Illyria has become at the end of last season.
BUT: if they are to split, can Willow NOT do it. I don't like her just being this person they call to do magic and then toss her back out the door. I'm also against her being a regular. If Fred does come back, though, let's not make it: Oh, her soul WASN'T destroyed after all. Let's make it that most of her soul was destroyed or at least a lot of something of her was destroyed. So if she comes back there is something really wrong with her. How about this: There is only a little bit of Fred left in Illyria. Some of that - or all of that bit - emerge from Illyria and Fred is back. But because it is not all of Fred, she will only be with them for an episode. She will fade away or return back into Illyria or some crap like that. It'd have to make sense within the episode storyline.
OR: We seperate Fred and Illyria. . .but not completely. They are still linked to one another. Not sure how. Lots of ways to go on this. One gets hurt, so does the other. One feels anger, so does the other. They can't go far from one another. Etc. In the first episode that Illyria and Fred are split, Fred may be really dark and really angry. She might want to take revenge on Illyria for what she did. But the others figure out that killing Illyria will kill Fred (again). And when they stop her, Fred tells them she already knows that it will kill her. She's in so much grief over what happened to her and what happened to Wes and Gunn. She's not too happy being alive. Hey! Buffy echoes, anyone? Still, I kinda like it.
Whatever we do - if we do - let's not make it easy for anybody.
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