|
|
Post by Joss on Oct 31, 2004 3:39:06 GMT
The only ones that are wrong are the ones that don't do anything at all. The just let Angel die at the hands of the evil frog. Thank God we can't be considered part of that group ;D ;D Anyway, on the subject of why we didn't pick up directly after Not Fade Away. For a long while our plans were to show the battle. First we were gonna pick it up right where the series ended, then we were gonna do it via flashback, then through some other wacky ways, but eventually we came to the realization that whatever we wrote would be a dissapointment to the viewer. Most Angel fans agree that this battle would be the ultimate fight of the Whedonverse. To see it written down would never be as good as the image you had in your head. So you, the viewer, can have anything happen in that battle before they were pulled out. Whatever you think happened in that alley is what happened.  |
|
|
|
Post by CitizenofBalance on Oct 31, 2004 6:40:09 GMT
what we are trying to do here is that that wasn't the series finale, so than it wouldn't take any power away from that episode, but it will be a fantastic battle to see and I would be very anxious to see that, that's one of the reasons i thought the series finale was so terrible!!! because of that ending. An army is approaching Angel, Spike, Gunn and Ilyria and than it's: "Let's get to work." And than it's over?  Hell no!!! they cant do that to me, i want to see the fight and see them win!!! or seeing buffy approach with her Slayer army and Faith, wow that would be a great battle too. I just thought of that, i should write, haha. I see your point. But it's still irrelevant to 6.01. Actually, I would have even preferred it more if the episode occurred in real time and actually started three months after the fight. It would be left to our minds. I think Joss Whedon would have probably done that. As for the slayer army thing, that would be a kick-ass fight, but it ain't the slayers' fight. I don't think Buffy would ever put aside time to fight Wolframm & Hart, even less want to get in Angel's way. One thing that was made especially clear in Power Play and Not Fade Away was that fighting Wolframm & Hart would not be a fight between good and evil. Angel wasn't fighting for good over evil. He was fighting to just prove that the oldest and most powerful structure ever does not own everybody. The Slayer gang fights for good over evil, so they would join that fight against Wolframm & Hart, even if those are the bad guys, it would go against their standards. |
|
Angel19
Vampire
A champion, a hero of the people
Posts: 25
|
Post by Angel19 on Oct 31, 2004 10:17:41 GMT
I see your point. But it's still irrelevant to 6.01. Actually, I would have even preferred it more if the episode occurred in real time and actually started three months after the fight. It would be left to our minds. I think Joss Whedon would have probably done that. As for the slayer army thing, that would be a kick-ass fight, but it ain't the slayers' fight. I don't think Buffy would ever put aside time to fight Wolframm & Hart, even less want to get in Angel's way. One thing that was made especially clear in Power Play and Not Fade Away was that fighting Wolframm & Hart would not be a fight between good and evil. Angel wasn't fighting for good over evil. He was fighting to just prove that the oldest and most powerful structure ever does not own everybody. The Slayer gang fights for good over evil, so they would join that fight against Wolframm & Hart, even if those are the bad guys, it would go against their standards. Gunn said it himself in the last episode that those senior partners are evil, so than the Slayers could help. I think Angel wouldn't mind a little Slayer army to help him at that point. And besides, Buffy is pig headed, so she would never let Angel send her away if she wants to help him  That would be so cool, in the middle of the fight between Angel and the gang against that army of W&H you suddenly hear screaming of all those girls attacking, helping angel and the gang, and than you see them running towards the fight, Buffy and Faith at the front. A demon wants to hit Angel but right before that Buffy kills him and says: "Need some help here?" and than Angel says: "Although i can win myself, some help would be nice yeah" (as a joke ). Ow damn, now i'm missing that fight even more I didn't see Power Play by the way, because i live in Holland and they're taking it slow, it's terrible, they're in the last season now, but now they stopped the show again and it will continue in january, that's really annoying. |
|
|
|
Post by CitizenofBalance on Oct 31, 2004 18:42:33 GMT
Actually, pigheaded Buffy is a tad more plausible. But I'm still not quite sure if the slayers would choose that fight.
The speech at the end of Power Play really does sort of point out Angel's intentions. Gunn, I guess, would be the only character left to justify it that way. He really was the only character with his dignity and humanity still in tact, so it would make sense for him to say the Senior Partners are evil.
And the Senior Partners are evil, but that still wasn't Angel's, in my opinion, reason to fight them. Angel knew, without a doubt, he would not be able to bring them down. He wanted to be the first person in thousands of years to tick them off.
That's why it's such a dark concept to find out that you actually did bring the senior partners down, the most powerful source that's basically primeval. Angel would have never guessed that to happen.
But you did still prove me wrong a bit. I think I kind of agree with you now. But you'll see where I'm coming from after you see Power Play.
|
|
|
|
Post by Inyan on Oct 31, 2004 19:00:43 GMT
I dont think it was ever implied that Angel took down the senior partners. Thay have influence in many dimensions, not just ours. What was said was that in our dimension Good has won over Evil. or more direclty Angel has won against the Black Thorn. Who he actually won against was never explicetly stated.
|
|
Angel19
Vampire
A champion, a hero of the people
Posts: 25
|
Post by Angel19 on Oct 31, 2004 19:10:13 GMT
Actually, pigheaded Buffy is a tad more plausible. But I'm still not quite sure if the slayers would choose that fight. The speech at the end of Power Play really does sort of point out Angel's intentions. Gunn, I guess, would be the only character left to justify it that way. He really was the only character with his dignity and humanity still in tact, so it would make sense for him to say the Senior Partners are evil. And the Senior Partners are evil, but that still wasn't Angel's, in my opinion, reason to fight them. Angel knew, without a doubt, he would not be able to bring them down. He wanted to be the first person in thousands of years to tick them off. That's why it's such a dark concept to find out that you actually did bring the senior partners down, the most powerful source that's basically primeval. Angel would have never guessed that to happen. But you did still prove me wrong a bit. I think I kind of agree with you now. But you'll see where I'm coming from after you see Power Play. Ok, now I can't wait 'till january, I'm just going to download Power Play, or else it's taking to long Power Play seems to be a very important episode, so i'm gonna get right to it |
|
Monster Zero
Champion
Creative Firebrand and all round Nice Guy
Posts: 104
|
Post by Monster Zero on Nov 1, 2004 14:54:08 GMT
man, i've missed out on a good discussion for a bit here!
In the Angel Season Six that I'm part of, I wrote a few brief battle scenes at the start of the episode but tried to keep a budget in mind. A lot of the mayhem goes on off camera, but enough is hinted at that the viewer can fill in the gaps themselves.
I think it was PowersThatBe who said that the big fight couldn't be accurately captured on screen because it's just too damn big, so you give the viewers a bit to go on and let them add the rest themselves!
Angel dropping into the shelter in 'Winning' with four swords still embedded in his body was darkly comic but also the kind of 'hint' I'm talking about!
|
|
Monster Zero
Champion
Creative Firebrand and all round Nice Guy
Posts: 104
|
Post by Monster Zero on Nov 1, 2004 14:56:28 GMT
*continues points in 2nd post to keep post size down*
I think a Slayer army would have been a bit cheesy, and also too out of keeping with the series ideals. Angel knew this was his fight, not Buffy's.
The main thing to consider about 'Not Fade Away' was that the show knew it was ending at that point, and so we got the ending Joss wanted. Of something cut off before its time, of the promise of something great frustratingly just out of reach.
Heck, it's quite philosophical when you think about it!
|
|
|
|
Post by Inyan on Nov 1, 2004 16:35:16 GMT
*continues points in 2nd post to keep post size down* Bull, its to get your post count up ;D |
|
Angel19
Vampire
A champion, a hero of the people
Posts: 25
|
Post by Angel19 on Nov 1, 2004 16:42:09 GMT
man, i've missed out on a good discussion for a bit here! In the Angel Season Six that I'm part of, I wrote a few brief battle scenes at the start of the episode but tried to keep a budget in mind. A lot of the mayhem goes on off camera, but enough is hinted at that the viewer can fill in the gaps themselves. I think it was PowersThatBe who said that the big fight couldn't be accurately captured on screen because it's just too damn big, so you give the viewers a bit to go on and let them add the rest themselves! Angel dropping into the shelter in 'Winning' with four swords still embedded in his body was darkly comic but also the kind of 'hint' I'm talking about! Yeah good that you mention that swords-thing, isn't 4 a little bit to much? Where do you put all those swords, i think it's a little bit to much. 2 swords is better |
|
Angel19
Vampire
A champion, a hero of the people
Posts: 25
|
Post by Angel19 on Nov 1, 2004 16:46:30 GMT
*continues points in 2nd post to keep post size down* I think a Slayer army would have been a bit cheesy, and also too out of keeping with the series ideals. Angel knew this was his fight, not Buffy's. The main thing to consider about 'Not Fade Away' was that the show knew it was ending at that point, and so we got the ending Joss wanted. Of something cut off before its time, of the promise of something great frustratingly just out of reach. Heck, it's quite philosophical when you think about it! *Since you're doing it in 2 posts, i do to If there's something that we've learned of Buffy and Angel, than that's that they are one. Buffy and Angel are meant to be (ok, the way that i wrote this down doesn't win a prize, but you know what i mean ). Although they both tried to move on, i think they both know that they're love is forever and that they are meant to be. Buffy's fight is Angel's fight too and Angel's fight is Buffy's fight too i think.... I think Angel would want it like that. Angel is still deeply in love with Buffy, no matter what... |
|
Dismas
Vampire with a Soul
Posts: 97
|
Post by Dismas on Nov 2, 2004 1:40:29 GMT
"We have no intention of doing anything so prosaic as 'winning.' (laughs)" - Holland Manners, Reprise
Yet, incredibly, 'winning' is what Angel's done. He entered the heart of darkness, destroyed it from the inside, and lived to fight again. Mission accomplished, right? Well, not completely. When the system breaks down the consequences are unpredictable and dangerous. Some prefer the stability of the evilest tyrant to the uncertainty and fear of chaos.
What will these formerly-oppressed legions do with this unwanted freedom?
"This is where the helpless are now. These demons -"
No ones left to fight for the demons. That used to be Wolfram and Hart's job, in a sense, and now it's gone. Now everyone's looking to its destroyer to fill its void. God knows where they'll look if he lets them down.
"And you’re the big guns?...I thought they’d burn me with cinders, boil my organs, and stick me with pitch forks. But no, not while Tobit’s an option."
Angel's mistaken to think Tobit's working for the Senior Partners, but he's not wrong to call him one of the big guns. We've never seen anyone as high on the corporate ladder as Tobit. He essentially has the Powers on speed dial. Angel's their big champion, but he's only gotten one measely vision. How did Tobit reach this level?
"Is that my pocket knife?"
Drew, you're got a talent for creating memorable details. Joss would be proud. I meant the other Joss, not our Joss, though I'm sure he's proud too. And he should be. I loved the script's appearance, too. Very professional looking. Bravo to everyone involved. The script was outstanding.
ps vote Kerry
|
|
|
|
Post by CitizenofBalance on Nov 2, 2004 4:59:25 GMT
*Since you're doing it in 2 posts, i do to If there's something that we've learned of Buffy and Angel, than that's that they are one. Buffy and Angel are meant to be (ok, the way that i wrote this down doesn't win a prize, but you know what i mean ). Although they both tried to move on, i think they both know that they're love is forever and that they are meant to be. Buffy's fight is Angel's fight too and Angel's fight is Buffy's fight too i think.... I think Angel would want it like that. Angel is still deeply in love with Buffy, no matter what... Yeah. Maybe in the first season of Angel. I completely disagree with you there. Angel and Buffy are seperate, and belong NOT together. As I said, that love lasted for the first couple of seasons. In fact, at some of the Angel forums they talk abou who Angel's "one true love" is. Of course it was between Darla, Buffy, and Cordelia. Of course Buffy would win from the three. But I believe that is still incorrect. I believe his one love was Connor, and even if not, Angel matured way past Buffy by the end of the series in my opinion. |
|
|
|
Post by LizaP on Nov 2, 2004 6:32:40 GMT
Dismas! Long time no see!
Good points, too.
|
|
Angel19
Vampire
A champion, a hero of the people
Posts: 25
|
Post by Angel19 on Nov 2, 2004 8:06:31 GMT
Yeah. Maybe in the first season of Angel. I completely disagree with you there. Angel and Buffy are seperate, and belong NOT together. As I said, that love lasted for the first couple of seasons. In fact, at some of the Angel forums they talk abou who Angel's "one true love" is. Of course it was between Darla, Buffy, and Cordelia. Of course Buffy would win from the three. But I believe that is still incorrect. I believe his one love was Connor, and even if not, Angel matured way past Buffy by the end of the series in my opinion. Watch the last episode of Buffy and listen closely to the dialogue when they're outside of the graveyard (and not KISSING anymore!!!) Now you disagree, but when you've seen that, you will agree with me |
|
|
|
Post by Drew on Nov 2, 2004 17:25:56 GMT
Hey, DISMAS!!! ;D ;D ;D Good to see you! Thanks for the nice post. As for the Angel love thing. It is possible for two people to love each other forever, but never end up together. That's buffy and Angel. That's Cordelia and Angel. That's Connor and Angel. Man, Angel's life sucks.  |
|
|
|
Post by Joss on Nov 2, 2004 22:56:27 GMT
Man, Angel's life sucks. Yeah, and we best keep it that way or else we're out of a job-- er, hobby. Anyway, glad to see you back Dismas, it's been far too long. Great post. All right, while I understand what you're all saying I think that I'll agree, as I often find myself doing, with Drew. Sorry to say it, but Angel's meant to suffer. We know it, the writers know it, heck Angel himself knows it. Angel loved all all of those people, but the very laws of physics don't allow it to happen. He just can't end up happy with someone. In terms of love, I think Angel's ultimate love is Buffy. But, Buffy beleives that Angel has gone to evil. Some people say that it's not possible for Buffy to think that, but I believe that she does. It's a shame that we'll never be able to see the scene where Buffy learns that Angel has gone over to Woflram & Hart, that would have been great. |
|
Monster Zero
Champion
Creative Firebrand and all round Nice Guy
Posts: 104
|
Post by Monster Zero on Nov 3, 2004 10:51:53 GMT
Unless you write it yourself as a flashback in a future episode... as He-Man would say, you have the power!
|
|
|
|
Post by CitizenofBalance on Nov 4, 2004 4:21:31 GMT
Watch the last episode of Buffy and listen closely to the dialogue when they're outside of the graveyard (and not KISSING anymore!!!) Now you disagree, but when you've seen that, you will agree with me I'm not saying Angel has completely gotten past Buffy and doesn't care if she lives or dies, and would definitely be jealous if someone else was involved with her. And yeah, being together with her (after the cookies are done) would be probably a pretty nice idea for Angel, but this dialogue still doesn't quite convince me. It even turns me the other way a little bit. Even if they are in love, they are both independent. It especially shows me this here. And the opinion really varies from which point you are looking at the mythology from. You probably look at it on the Buffy side and I definitely look at it from the Angel side. On the Angel side, it really looks to me that Angel and Buffy are separate entities. |
|
Angel19
Vampire
A champion, a hero of the people
Posts: 25
|
Post by Angel19 on Nov 4, 2004 9:45:43 GMT
I'm not saying Angel has completely gotten past Buffy and doesn't care if she lives or dies, and would definitely be jealous if someone else was involved with her. And yeah, being together with her (after the cookies are done) would be probably a pretty nice idea for Angel, but this dialogue still doesn't quite convince me. It even turns me the other way a little bit. Even if they are in love, they are both independent. It especially shows me this here. And the opinion really varies from which point you are looking at the mythology from. You probably look at it on the Buffy side and I definitely look at it from the Angel side. On the Angel side, it really looks to me that Angel and Buffy are separate entities. Ok, you supprise me, you're more pigheaded then i thought but that's ok, I can forgive you for being wrong (just joking ) Angel went away from Buffy....why?? Because Buffy's mom made him question if Buffy and he had a life together. Buffy's mom told him they've not, even though things between Buffy and Angel were going perfect. If Buffy's mom would have kept her big mouth shut, than they would still be together That's what I think, but we'll never know now.......maybe they would have broken up.....but i don't think so. But I'm also more like a happy ending thinker. Everything must have a happy ending. |
|
That would be so cool, in the middle of the fight between Angel and the gang against that army of W&H you suddenly hear screaming of all those girls attacking, helping angel and the gang, and than you see them running towards the fight, Buffy and Faith at the front. A demon wants to hit Angel but right before that Buffy kills him and says: "Need some help here?" and than Angel says: "Although i can win myself, some help would be nice yeah" (as a joke 
