angelusfan
Vampire with a Soul
UH-OH! Vampire with a gun.
Posts: 91
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Post by angelusfan on Oct 28, 2004 2:43:27 GMT
The other problem was when Angel said that they won. I just don't see Angel losing two of his closest friends in a fight, and then saying that he won. Ok Maybe I can help you with this one.Key word maybe. Do you remember the episode "Blind Date" and where Holand ask Lindsey What does safe mean and all that well a little later in the speech Holland tells Lindesy that he stood up to WolfRam and Hart and won and that he could count the number of people who has done that on one hand. So what "I'M" guessing is that yes he lost two members of his crew but Angel,Spike and Illyria still stood up to WolfRam and Hart and they won.
Remember everyone that this is just a random thought and yall can feel free to argue with it all you want.
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Stingray
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I was at Woodstock. I fed off a flower person and I spent six hours watching my hand move.
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Post by Stingray on Oct 28, 2004 3:48:56 GMT
Ok Maybe I can help you with this one.Key word maybe. Do you remember the episode "Blind Date" and where Holand ask Lindsey What does safe mean and all that well a little later in the speech Holland tells Lindesy that he stood up to WolfRam and Hart and won and that he could count the number of people who has done that on one hand. So what "I'M" guessing is that yes he lost two members of his crew but Angel,Spike and Illyria still stood up to WolfRam and Hart and they won.
Remember everyone that this is just a random thought and yall can feel free to argue with it all you want. That could be. But even so, I still can't see Angel calling this battle a victory. He lost every member of his "chosen" family. All that he is left with is Spike, who he doesn't really even like, and Illyria, the creature who killed a member of his family, and did so happily. So even if he did admit he won, I just can't see him saying it that soon after the battle, that soon after losing his family. If it were me, and I was going to have Angel say that he won, I would have wrote that as the final line of the episode... Actually I would have waited a couple of episodes. Give him time to contemplate what has happened before he comes to the realization that the battle was won. P.S. To all those who write these stories *random thought* Perhaps Buffy (the only other member of his family) could hear of what happened, and come and console Angel. Angel lets out all of his emotions when they talk, and for the first time in at least 100 years, Angel cries. You know, he could be holding it all in to keep up the tough, brooding hero look in front of all the demons. waitaminute *random thought* Spike bears witness to this while evesdropping, and his heart goes out to Angel, and Spike finds a new respect for Angel... or not. Tell me what you think.
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Post by Doyle on Oct 28, 2004 4:18:13 GMT
Stingray, I understand where you're coming from, but keep in mind: (1) they didn't just win a battle, they won the war. The loss of life, even though that of his closest friends, is nothing compared to those saved in the long run. If a general loses all his soldiers but still wins the war, he is still going to take a moment to celebrate that his men didnt die in vain. This wasn't just a win, it was THE win. And after all, this celebratory moment is just Angel proclaiming that they "won" the war, its not like they had party hats and a cake. (2) In Power Play Angel and Co. made it clear when they decided to do this fight that none of them had or should have any delusions about coming back. For as many to survive as they did is icing on the cake. He's probably a little relieved he's not dead and/or alone.
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Stingray
Vampire
I was at Woodstock. I fed off a flower person and I spent six hours watching my hand move.
Posts: 29
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Post by Stingray on Oct 28, 2004 5:11:32 GMT
Stingray, I understand where you're coming from, but keep in mind: (1) they didn't just win a battle, they won the war. The loss of life, even though that of his closest friends, is nothing compared to those saved in the long run. If a general loses all his soldiers but still wins the war, he is still going to take a moment to celebrate that his men didnt die in vain. This wasn't just a win, it was THE win. And after all, this celebratory moment is just Angel proclaiming that they "won" the war, its not like they had party hats and a cake. (2) In Power Play Angel and Co. made it clear when they decided to do this fight that none of them had or should have any delusions about coming back. For as many to survive as they did is icing on the cake. He's probably a little relieved he's not dead and/or alone. You make a good point, Doyle. But I don't see Angel looking at the situation as a general. Though he does have to make decisions as such, I think it would affect him on a more personal scale. But, yea, I can see your point.
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Angel19
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Post by Angel19 on Oct 28, 2004 9:19:04 GMT
I have to agree with you Stingray, Angel would never say that he won, after losing Wes and Gunn. They meant so much to him. Remember when Doyle died??? Angel didn't know Doyle as long as Wes and Gunn here, but the death of Doyle was killing him, although with the death of Doyle they stopped some kind of army Half-Demon-haters. So i think that Angel wouldn't say that. But oh well, that's just my opninion
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Monster Zero
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Creative Firebrand and all round Nice Guy
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Post by Monster Zero on Oct 28, 2004 10:01:08 GMT
aah, you can tell this is going to be a good series - already people are getting into debates about it ^_^
let's face it, a show that you can't discuss afterwards isn't really worth writing!
for my two pence, I get the idea behind Angel's use of the phrase 'we won,' but I think there are a lot of levels of meaning to it, and that it's more of a borderline moral victory than anything else.
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Post by ThePowersThatBe on Oct 28, 2004 14:55:17 GMT
Also, Angel saying "we won" was more revelation than exclamation. In other words, he was just as surprised as anyone that the three of them came out with their skin (mostly) intact.
As far as him not seeing the situation as a general would, let's not forget that in most situations, Angel would not have led his people as a general would. The current situation changed things on several important levels.
If the Whedonverse has any universal message, it's that change happens. It doesn't happen overnight, but grows out of everything that has proceeded it. Failure to change = death. I may be rebutted right into the ground for saying this, but it was Anya's inability to truly change with her situation that ultimately led to her demise in Buffy, and I think Whedon and Co. made the decision consciously. In some ways, the same can be said about Wes and Conner (though Conner didn't die in the literal sense, he became an entirely different person, which is the next best thing).
Hmmmm... I think I may have overspoken here...
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angelusfan
Vampire with a Soul
UH-OH! Vampire with a gun.
Posts: 91
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Post by angelusfan on Oct 28, 2004 16:15:54 GMT
Not at all I feel you were right on the dot with everything you said. Fail to Change does = Death in the Whedonverse. And that fact becomes more true in the last battle when Wesley see Illyria and then Fred. Wesley didn't want things to change and so he died.
You made a great point TPTB maybe you aint connected to tptsy ;D( all in fun, all in fun).
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Post by Drew on Oct 28, 2004 18:54:45 GMT
My view on it is that for the past five years Angel has been dogged and made to suffer horribly at the hands of W&H...and now he has finally taken them down. He's weak and drowsy and he realizes "We won."
And notice how he says "We won" - not "I won". Angel won. Spike won. Illyria won. Wesley won. Gunn won. Even though Wes and Gunn died, they died winning.
Of course, the ending of the episode is intended to highlight that even though he (Angel) has won - he has also lost so much.
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Monster Zero
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Post by Monster Zero on Oct 29, 2004 10:34:21 GMT
I may be rebutted right into the ground for saying this, but it was Anya's inability to truly change with her situation that ultimately led to her demise in Buffy, and I think Whedon and Co. made the decision consciously. i'd like to think that, but personally i just thought they looked at 'Chosen' and said 'Hmm.. we need to kill off at least one of them, who's it gonna be?' they daren't kill off Wood in case they got called racist, none of the main girls or the Core Four were gonna die, nor was Andrew, so my money was on Anya from the start. cruel, if you ask me!
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Angel19
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Post by Angel19 on Oct 29, 2004 10:40:01 GMT
that's stupid that you had your money on Anya, because Joss Whedon & Co. created a few options. One of them was that Xander would die, in another one Andrew would die and in the third one Anya dies and they chose that one, but it's not like the decision was so easy as you're now saying. But why I'm here (back to Angel ). Why didn't you all start in the actual battle against that army and the dragon, exactly where we left off in season 5. I really wanted to see a battle like that, now it's like I have the feeling I missed something.
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Post by Doyle on Oct 29, 2004 11:55:55 GMT
that's stupid that you had your money on Anya, because Joss Whedon & Co. created a few options. One of them was that Xander would die, in another one Andrew would die and in the third one Anya dies and they chose that one, but it's not like the decision was so easy as you're now saying. Actually, it was that easy. Emma Caulfield had already told Joss that no matter what, she would never be interested in reprising the role of Anya in the future so when it came time for chosen, she needed to be written out for good somehow so....yeah. At one point it was discussed that Xander would come under the influence of the First and would later be killed by Buffy, but that storyline never came to pass and he only lost his eye to Caleb instead. There was a foiler version of the script for Chosen that was released a week before it aired and it had Xander die instead of Anya, but again, it was a foiler and was meant to deceive. I never heard the thing about Andrew possibly dying though.
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Post by Joss on Oct 29, 2004 12:21:24 GMT
Actually yeah, there was a script version where Andrew dies. I've read interviews with Joss Whedon about this and he said that they needed to kill someone, and the two best candidates were Anya and Andrew. Both of these cript incarnations were written but ultimatly Anya was chosen because like Doyle just said Caulfield wanted to stay out after the series was done.
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Post by ThePowersThatBe on Oct 29, 2004 15:05:00 GMT
i'd like to think that, but personally i just thought they looked at 'Chosen' and said 'Hmm.. we need to kill off at least one of them, who's it gonna be?' they daren't kill off Wood in case they got called racist, none of the main girls or the Core Four were gonna die, nor was Andrew, so my money was on Anya from the start. cruel, if you ask me! actually, and this is the last I'll say on the subject, cuz it's off-topic already), Anya's death was telegraphed early in the season, in "Selfless": D'HOFFRYN I've got plenty of girls. There will always be vengeance demons. But now you, Anya, you're out. Congratulations. You're wish is granted. ANYA You should've killed me. D'HOFFRYN Oh, I wouldn't worry about that. From beneath you, it devours. Be patient. All good things in time. Sure, not all of the "death prophecies" came true in that season, but Anya's was one of the few not "foretold" by The First. When I watched that the first time, I knew she would get iced, especially considering her meltdown at the time.
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Post by CitizenofBalance on Oct 30, 2004 19:33:53 GMT
But why I'm here (back to Angel ). Why didn't you all start in the actual battle against that army and the dragon, exactly where we left off in season 5. I really wanted to see a battle like that, now it's like I have the feeling I missed something. I disagree. If they had showed the battle, it would not only have been irrelevant to "winning", it also would've taken power away from the series finale.
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Angel19
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Posts: 25
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Post by Angel19 on Oct 30, 2004 21:42:48 GMT
I disagree. If they had showed the battle, it would not only have been irrelevant to "winning", it also would've taken power away from the series finale. what we are trying to do here is that that wasn't the series finale, so than it wouldn't take any power away from that episode, but it will be a fantastic battle to see and I would be very anxious to see that, that's one of the reasons i thought the series finale was so terrible!!! because of that ending. An army is approaching Angel, Spike, Gunn and Ilyria and than it's: "Let's get to work." And than it's over? Hell no!!! they cant do that to me, i want to see the fight and see them win!!! or seeing buffy approach with her Slayer army and Faith, wow that would be a great battle too. I just thought of that, i should write, haha.
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angelusfan
Vampire with a Soul
UH-OH! Vampire with a gun.
Posts: 91
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Post by angelusfan on Oct 30, 2004 22:05:00 GMT
Well first off Angel19 you aint the first one to come up with the slayer army thing, that has been floating out that ever sence the show was cancel. And second if the had shown the battle a) it would have cost WAY TOO MUCH and b) now keep in mind this one is my feelings, at the end of Not Fade Away Angel tells the guys "Lets Get to Work" well I feel he wasn't just talking to the crew. Angel was talking about all the fans out here. We can keep Angel alive for eons if we had the mind to(and plan to do). I feel the show ended on a cliffhanger cause if Joss had close it there wouldn't have been alot we could do with it, however like it is we can have fun with it and get to write things like "Winning" or other things. Like in another one I'm reading, *Spoiler*Connor is used as a bardering chip to get Angel to go with the SP's right in the middle of the fight*End Spoiler* ,if the show had shown the fight where would that story be?
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Angel19
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A champion, a hero of the people
Posts: 25
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Post by Angel19 on Oct 30, 2004 22:21:06 GMT
Well first off Angel19 you aint the first one to come up with the slayer army thing, that has been floating out that ever sence the show was cancel. And second if the had shown the battle a) it would have cost WAY TOO MUCH and b) now keep in mind this one is my feelings, at the end of Not Fade Away Angel tells the guys "Lets Get to Work" well I feel he wasn't just talking to the crew. Angel was talking about all the fans out here. We can keep Angel alive for eons if we had the mind to(and plan to do). I feel the show ended on a cliffhanger cause if Joss had close it there wouldn't have been alot we could do with it, however like it is we can have fun with it and get to write things like "Winning" or other things. Like in another one I'm reading, *Spoiler*Connor is used as a bardering chip to get Angel to go with the SP's right in the middle of the fight*End Spoiler* ,if the show had shown the fight where would that story be? Angel also talking to the fans? ok Angelusfan, now you're losing it. I think that if they ended with a battle like that, the fans would be fullfilled, it's the end than. i know i would have a feeling of that's it, it's end. Than i'm talking about a battle that would be with Slayers and everything. When they ended Buffy it fealed good, it's done, you know what i mean. And it's to bad that that wasn't happening in Angel.
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angelusfan
Vampire with a Soul
UH-OH! Vampire with a gun.
Posts: 91
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Post by angelusfan on Oct 30, 2004 22:41:26 GMT
Angel also talking to the fans? ok Angelusfan, now you're losing it. Why you say that I feel that Angel was talking to his fans to get to work on saving Angel and writing his and the others future, hinch why it's a cliffhanger. The fans can write whatever they feel like. And there wouldn't be a wrong way.
Like with my story, I have it where Angel is killed off and Willow and Faith become members of the cast and Angel comes back human. There is no wrong here because this is how "I" want my story to be and noone can change that. And noone can prove me wrong. Yall can tell me it stinks but I still gave it a shot.
The only ones that are wrong are the ones that don't do anything at all. The just let Angel die at the hands of the evil frog.(WB'S mascot is a frog in case yall didn't know). They are the ones that really end Angel on a bad note.
To me the way Joss did it was the best way he could with the time and budget he was give, and still hope his characters would still live or unlive as the case would be.
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Post by ThePowersThatBe on Oct 31, 2004 0:33:04 GMT
The reason the series ended the way it did was twofold: the first which we've discussed ad nauseum, is that Angel was all about the fight, not necessarily winning. The fight never truly ends, thus, the series never truly does either. The second, which Whedon himself has expressed, is that he was feeling depressed and resentful over what had happened to the series at the hands of The Whub. So, as a means of catharsis, he chose to share his pain with the viewers.
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