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Post by Joss on Jun 23, 2004 2:34:24 GMT
I think that it is time that we begin to discuss a story.
We have worked and established many things in the last few weeks. We have got a theme, characters, some good episode ideas, and a basic idea of what happens. But we don't know what truly happens.
We know that there is chaos, that Angel and Grace need to find an order in the chaos, and in the end we will have a "Good" Apocalypse. But we don't know how we will get there. What events lead them to this?
I think it is time that we go into an in-depth discussion of what the key events of this season will be.
What are the Powers that Be as big bads trying to do? Are they trying to bring back Wolfram and Hart? Are they trying to start an apocalypse? Are they trying to open a Gateway to bring back pure demons to this world?
Why does Angel come into conflict with them? Why does Tobit go from being the helpful liason to the big bad? How do the powers go from the good guys to the guys that are trying to deep-fry our ass?
What happens to Angel? Why does he end up creating an Apocalypse? How does he find an order through the chaos?
These are all issues that we need to work out, to decide upon to continue our outline. We have standalones and the begining, but because we have not established the key events we can't develop the final stages.
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Post by Drew on Jun 23, 2004 4:30:12 GMT
One possibility for the goal of the PTB is that they are not trying to do anything. . .and that's the problem. They just let the world continue as a hard and violent place. They encourage it, in fact. They don't try to make it better. They don't try to make it a little more bearable.
I don't know if that will be dramatic enough, though.
I was thinking that they would just be the obstacle, holding Angel back from doing any REAL good this season.
Maybe for most of the season, that is what they will do but when Angel gets more aggressive at the end, they ratchet things up a notch.
See, it's usually the other way around. The bad guys are usually making the plans to start an apocalypse and Angel & Co. always have to go in and stop them. This time, Angel is the one making the plans and the bad guys (TPTB) are going to try to stop them.
Oh, and one of the PTB's plans should be for Groo to arrive to try and take out Angel and Grace. I really like this idea because it does go with the whole theme of Good fighting lesser Good. It's Groo fighting Angel.
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Post by Joss on Jun 23, 2004 4:39:48 GMT
Oh, and one of the PTB's plans should be for Groo to arrive to try and take out Angel and Grace. I really like this idea because it does go with the whole theme of Good fighting lesser Good. It's Groo fighting Angel. I love this idea. Serves as one long and important story and also to demonstrate the manipulation/sneakiness of Tobit. Of course eventually Groo should work things out and discover that he is being set up and then be killed by Tobit.
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Post by Jaxxson on Jun 23, 2004 20:26:17 GMT
I think that we need to have an agenda for doing this mabey they can be drawing there powers from the fear of human well not the fear but the hope that somthing with save them from what ever is coming see the hope of humans is what gives them the power to try and fight evil and with out the fear what creates the hope the would be powerless and with angel trying to ease that fear he is taking away the Powers of TPTB and they don't want that and same with the evil mabey they draw there powers from fear and need it to survive
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Post by LizaP on Jun 23, 2004 21:49:24 GMT
Here's my three cents worth:
first penny: I think Angel finds out from Grace during episode 5 (my episode, well mine and Drew's) that what is needed is balance. I don't think he can figure this out on his own.
Second penny: They need something to start the apocalypse and I think Illyria's knowlege as an Old One can lead them to what they need. And I think (given the past history of this show) it should be a mysterious artifact.
Third penny: The artifact must be common enough that when the magic is kicked in, the artifact affects everyone at the same time. Like coffeemakers that think.
Remember when all the Potentials got their Slayer power? We need something like that - only something common so when the artifact is activated, millions of them are activated .. but without the owners knowing it.
Man I hope that made sense.
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Post by Joss on Jun 23, 2004 22:34:42 GMT
I like all three cents.
I hadn't really thought about Illyria helping out. Yeah perhaps it could be like "The single most old scroll in the known macroverse" or something like that.
Only thing that I am against is the coffe maker idea. I don't think that it is necesary. For example the girl with that bat didn't have a scythe when she became a slayer, did she?
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Post by Drew on Jun 23, 2004 23:20:05 GMT
I'm not sure if it will happen as early as episode five, and I'm not sure she would tell them that balance is needed (bah! this is where things get tricky with words - sorry). I think she would tell them that chaos is coming because Tobit has only been telling them that "everything is GREAT! You won, Angel. Pat on the back! Now, go fight where I tell you." So she will tell him that chaos - as a result of the end of last season - is coming. And it can only mean an end. (at this point she will get confused and trail off). Angel, of course, will take this to mean that chaos will destroy the world. But really, she is referring to the Good Apoc. She just can't put it into words right now. Her head's all muddled. So she will tell him this and Tobit will NOT be around to hear this. So now Angel is wondering why Tobit and Grace are giving him conflicting reports of the state of things. Then, by episode 8, with the emergence of Fred' soul, we will really start to see the effects of this growing chaos. From there, some other stuff happens. I don't think we need to worry about exactly what. It'll just come together - as these things tend to do. ;D
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Post by LizaP on Jun 24, 2004 0:11:56 GMT
OK, episode 5 is a little early - but we need Grace and Angel working together by then. And I think that Tobit (or Toby as he calls himself) should be introduced at the same time. If they are given conflicting information to Angel, it's easier to get confused as to who to believe if neither has any kind of history with Angel. In other words, at this point, he doesn't know who to believe, but he has both sources.
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Post by Drew on Jun 24, 2004 3:12:44 GMT
Tobit will be introduced the first episode of the season. He saves them from the alley. This is in Approved Ideas. Angel and Grace will really first meet in ep. 5 so it's a little early for them to be working together. And they can't really work together - probably not until the third act - because they don't know what they are working on. I see Angel and Grace having this relationship where their paths cross every once an awhile, when she seeks him out to help her with something. And if Angel already has a five episode relationship with Tobit, then it will be harder for him to come over to what Grace is talking about - which is good because it makes it harder for Angel to win.
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Post by Drew on Jun 24, 2004 3:36:34 GMT
Just to clarify:
The PTB want balance. Balance, this season, is bad. Balance means the promotion of evil.
Angel & Grace just want to fight evil. They want to make things better and not promote evil and say to hell with balance.
Maybe as one element of the chaos or the main element:
Humans and demons begin to mix to become one and the same thing. This could go with our whole thing about showing evil humans and at the end the Good Apoc would stop this and show the humans that there are demons among them. Etc. Also parallels the whole Fred's emerging soul becoming one with Illyria, threatening to destroy them both. Then Fred and Illy are split (but at a cost) - and this Good Apoc needs to come at a cost.
So I think those parallel each other nicely. And is that kind of like finding order out of chaos? I'll think more about how we can show humans becoming demons.
Also, it's a move toward uniformity, which is part of the 2nd law of thermodynamics which deals with chaos and entropy.
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Post by Drew on Jun 24, 2004 17:31:43 GMT
Part of the whole Good Apoc of seperating humans and demons could be the creation of a pure demon and the creation of a human.
Maybe Tobit could become the pure demon and Spike could defeat him and become human.
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Post by Joss on Jun 24, 2004 17:34:50 GMT
I like that idea...
But, goofy guy suddenly becomes the big bad and then turns into a pure demon. BTVS season 3 anyone?
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Post by Drew on Jun 26, 2004 23:54:09 GMT
Yeah, and actually I'd rather have Angel start the Good Apoc and not Spike. I mean, it can be a team effort, but Angel should be the "I" in team.
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Post by Drew on Jun 27, 2004 0:11:33 GMT
Maybe as one element of the chaos or the main element: Humans and demons begin to mix to become one and the same thing. This could go with our whole thing about showing evil humans and at the end the Good Apoc would stop this and show the humans that there are demons among them. Etc. Still not sure what this would constitute. What about a huge, huge, huge, surge in Vampire activity? Vampires are - sort of - the mixing of human and demon. Maybe that could just be one factor.
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chris
Champion
Posts: 124
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Post by chris on Jun 27, 2004 0:13:27 GMT
What if the dead were rising as vampires without being bitten. The loss of rules through chaos could mean that people were turning into vampires without the normal means. The dead are rising!
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Post by Drew on Jun 27, 2004 0:24:12 GMT
If they were rising from the dead w/o drinking vamp blood and still becoming vamps - I wouldn't like that. Vamp blood is key. They could be zombies. but zombies are horribly dull. I'd prefer that living people change into demons somehow. What if humans that get attacked by demons turn into their demon attackers? I don't know how. blah.
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Post by Drew on Jun 28, 2004 16:23:06 GMT
Here's an idea for Tobit's and the Power's plan.
This idea necessitates the Demon Community Center (it could also be a shelter, I guess...or both)
Anyway,
This shelter helps demons who are in need, who are barely able to make a living, who face violence, persecution, and hatred from humans. So I see it happening like this: Ep. 1: Angel meets Tobit and is introduced to the Demon Shelter. Tobit is in charge of the place and he words for the Powers. He offers Angel a job there, but Angel hasn't exactly warmed enough to Tobit to accept (he is pissed that the Powers left Gunn back in the alley and pulled Angel away from the fight and his friend). Ep. 4: Angel tries to restart Angel Investigations. From behind the scenes, Tobit ensures that this attempt is a failure. Tobit and the Powers want Angel where they can manage him. Ep. 5: Angel (& possibly Spike and Illyria) take jobs at the Demon Shelter. And they keep these jobs for a majority of the season.
Then, as the season progresses, more and more demons continue to flood into the shelter with new gripes about humans. The problems progress and progress and Angel & Co. are trying their best, but they're taking orders from Tobit, too, and he's distracting them. And at the end of the season, it is revealed that Tobit and the Powers are encouraging this strife. They are stirring up hatred and prejudice and boiling rage among the demons. And eventually this will start these demons attacking humans in force. So the Powers and Tobit are trying to balance things by stirring up a war between demons and humans in LA. It's not starting a new W&H, it's unifying these impoverished demons against a common enemy.
Oh, and the demons flooding into the shelter are ensouled demons. Side note: the Shelter should have a soul detector at the entrance. If something without a soul enters, the detector detects this and tries to stop the person - the detector should just be some dumpy looking demon because the shelter can't afford creepy hooded demons for their security (like W&H). And this should come into effect in the first or second episode with Illyria. She should enter the Shelter and the detector should detect no soul within her and try to stop her. She'll use some choice words or hit him or something - and it should probably just be played for laughs. But then, in ep. 7 or 8, she should walk through it again, and he should detect a soul. He'll confront her about it, and she will be disturbed, tell him his magic is defective and that he is "mistaken." Still, this really gets her wondering what the hell is going on with her.
One more thing: Bear in mind that, for the majority of the season, we would present the Demon Shelter as a good thing. It should come as a surprise that it is being used in this way - to start a war.
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Post by Joss on Jun 28, 2004 22:58:14 GMT
I like this idea, like it very much.
Now that Angel Inv. is out of business then our heros need a new place to set out from. I guess maybe Angel could talk to hurt demons and find out what happened and go pound the guys behind it, or something.
But what I really, really like is the Illyria bit. I think it is a great idea that in the first ep the guy would be like "Could you have a little less soul?" and then be shocked when Illy shows up all soulified.
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Dismas
Vampire with a Soul
Posts: 97
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Post by Dismas on Jun 29, 2004 2:40:57 GMT
The demon shelter sounds like a nifty place. It'll play really well with the idea of setting up Grace like a villian.
Would these be like 9 to 5 jobs? I think Angel's more suited for a consultant position. Something with more freedom.
If Tobit undermines Angel in Ep. 4 it should be very, very subtle. We don't want to reveal him as a villian too early. He could discourage Angel. Make it seem like his angle is to get Angel to work with him instead of by himself.
I can see how the Powers could use the shelter to start a war, but it really what they'd want to do? It would be more chaos.
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Post by Drew on Jun 29, 2004 16:23:19 GMT
I think the chaos we're going for is much more subtle now than people and demons fighting in the streets. At least, it's how I've been thinking about it. In order to seperate chaos and fighting in the streets, I've been thinking that the chaos can be this thing that is on a fundamental level. Like a closed system in Thermodynamics. Entropy will increase. Uniformity will increase. Demons and humans will really start to become indistinguishable. The chaos is what causes Fred's soul to re-emerge, for it to mix with Illyria, threatening to destroy both. The chaos causes strange things to happen to demons and humans, making them more alike. Stuff like that.
BTW, I'm not a physicist, but I think I'm getting this entropy stuff right.
So the Powers would be causing fighting between humans and demons, but it's not chaos. There's order to it. humans and demons are on opposite sides.
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