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Post by Drew on Jun 18, 2004 6:31:17 GMT
Quickly, the names with votes seem to be (in order of popularity): 1) Tobit (pronounced "Toe-bit") (nickname: Toby) 2) Ernest (nickname: Ernie) 3) Stuart
Any more suggestions, get 'em in soon.
Now, to reply to Joss and tear apart everything he just said simply because I feel like it. Ooooh, this is my favorite part of the day! I mean - um - respectfully, I would like to argue with your point...sir.
You're saying that TPTB wants all the power now. But we've always been going on the knowledge that the Powers want "balance". That effectively, they will resort to evil ways in order to achieve this balance.
And Grace sent Angel the vision in order to put this into effect, to have him first topple the evil system (W&H), then topple TPTB, and to finally show the world this Good Apoc, that people have the Power within themselves. But not so Buffy finale-like.
The reason I'd be concerned about having the Powers want all the Power, is that that is what the evil system wanted, that's what Wolfram and Hart wanted. And we shouldn't do the same thing, but with the opposing side.
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Post by Drew on Jun 18, 2004 6:39:48 GMT
And about Alan. If he is to be akin to Cordy and Doyle, I think he needs to be a demon. Because he has a more direct link ( ) with the Powers and even someone with just visions needs to be demon in order to handle them. And it'd be nice if we gave him a very normal outside-of-work side to himself, like Cordy and Doyle had. It would make his betrayal even more surprising. Should he try to date? He should have a favorite place to eat or something. He should have friends, a history. He should NOT be like Hamilton, where work is his life. The key is that he doesn't believe he is evil, the key is that he is NOT evil. He's trying to do what's best for the world, and he may get dirty doing it. I think maybe something he could do is: he will send Angel on certain missions but while Angel is on those somewhat trivial missions, other, even more terrible things are happening that Angel could stop. Alan is just keeping him from them. So it's not like he's causing the bad thing to happen. He's just not doing anything to stop them. He's allowing evil to have the upper hand in some cases. And maybe we could even have him feeling remorse over doing this. It could set him up to seem like he might turn against the Powers with Angel - but the Powers have a direct link to his brain, and they will control him eventually. That could make things even a bit tragic for him. Thoughts?
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chris
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Post by chris on Jun 18, 2004 11:54:06 GMT
I really like the idea of the powers controlling Alan's brain so that although deep down he doesn't like what he is doing he has no choice. It adds a layer to the bad guy that hasn't been seen before and it may be a good change as if Angel does eventually kill him he may too do it with regret.
I'm not sure I like the idea of the powers wanting all the power, ok thats confusing?! It struck me as a bit of the old cliche 'absolute power corrupts absolutely.' I prefare the idea of the powers trying to restore balance by reintroducing evil to the world so that they can keep control of man. The bad powers are gone, and if then the good powers' grip on man has been weakened now would be the perfect time for man to take control of their destiny. Something that they do not want to happen...
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Post by Joss on Jun 18, 2004 15:58:07 GMT
It struck me as a bit of the old cliche 'absolute power corrupts absolutely.' I knew that there was an old saying like that but I couldn't remember it. That's it. Yeah, that's kind of like the angle that I was going to, but you're right, it does really fall apart. Oh well, just posting up some ideas.
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Post by Joss on Jun 18, 2004 18:22:12 GMT
I just realized that is going to be very difficult to pass "Alan" off as a good guy at first because he is played by someone from Firefly and people will immediatly feel that is evil.
This post was pretty useless, wasn't it? I like typing ;D
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Post by Drew on Jun 18, 2004 20:44:13 GMT
Yeah, but Alan Tudyk is so likeable. Plus, we're not actually filming this. Or does someone here have the cast locked up in a closet?
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Post by Joss on Jun 18, 2004 23:07:07 GMT
Or does someone here have the cast locked up in a closet? (whistles innocently) Okay, getting back to business I have a question on this here fellow: What, not who, but what is this guy? Is he some kind a Skip-like demon that takes a human form? Is he a human that has been given special powers? A supernatural being a la Hamilton? Just something that I feel that we need to decide on before we begin the characterization of this man/demon/thingy.
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Dismas
Vampire with a Soul
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Post by Dismas on Jun 18, 2004 23:21:32 GMT
Yeah, but Alan Tudyk is so likeable. Plus, we're not actually filming this. Or does someone here have the cast locked up in a closet? Not all of them. Anyone have Tom Lenk's address? If we introduce Alan as the guy who saved Angel from certain death in the alley, he'd certainly seem like a good guy. Next he announces himself as an emmissary of the Powers and an ally in restoring order. I'm worried he'll seem TOO good and the audience will get suspicious too quickly. I've been thinking that the Powers That Be are more concerned with order vs chaos instead of good vs evil. It's not the power that corrupts them. Their goals are just different than what we've chosen to believe. They see things at a higher level, even higher than the Senior Partners. They don't want people to suffer, but an individual life or an individual's lifetime isn't a big deal in their eyes. Maybe after the slow moral decay of The Apocalypse there would be a rebirth into a better world, so they were willing to let it happen. Eventually Alan tells Angel that the visions weren't about saving lives or helping the helpless. They were all about Angel. The Powers were grooming a champion who's not shackled by mortality. Alan knows all this because he's the same sort of champion - he's an immortal who signed onto the Power's master plan long ago. Now that all of the mortals on Angel's team are gone, it's the perfect time to show him what's happening behind the scenes. So......am I crazy?
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Post by Joss on Jun 18, 2004 23:30:14 GMT
Okay guys, I'm not kidding, we should really tell him. (j/k) Okay, getting back to business, those are good ideas you got there, I like it very much. It all makes sense and gives us a way to make them bad (at least in my opinion. Alan knows all this because he's the same sort of champion - he's an immortal who signed onto the Power's master plan long ago. So does this mean that he was a man once, before he signed on. That once upon a time he was a man made out of flesh and bone? Sorry if I am getting repetitive with the whole "What the heck is this guy" issue, but I feel we need to solve it pronto.
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Post by Drew on Jun 19, 2004 4:45:30 GMT
Not all of them. Anyone have Tom Lenk's address? Eventually Alan tells Angel that the visions weren't about saving lives or helping the helpless. They were all about Angel. The Powers were grooming a champion who's not shackled by mortality. Alan knows all this because he's the same sort of champion - he's an immortal who signed onto the Power's master plan long ago. Now that all of the mortals on Angel's team are gone, it's the perfect time to show him what's happening behind the scenes. I'm confused. What do you mean by this? Alan needs to be a demon. Definitely. As I said above, he's got the Powers in his brain. Cordy needed to become part demon for that to become safe. And Alan is higher up than a vision-receiver person. I think he needs to be more like Doyle in that he is a demon (or part) but he has a life outside of the Powers, too. Except maybe we should have Alan have his connection to the Powers from birth. He didn't receive them. He was born with them. But no visions - that's the hard part. Do the Powers speak through him - like, literally speak through him. Occassionaly, he will open his mouth and a different voice will come out and talk to Angel and give him instructions. Or what?
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chris
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Post by chris on Jun 19, 2004 10:45:56 GMT
Speaking through him would be cool and a good way to get away from the visions, he could have no power over it and not even know when it is coming until it happens.
As for who he is, was just an idea so feel free to say is stupid but... He could have been born to human parents who tried to bring him up as a normal child but things were always a bit different with him and they don't know how. He may have been sent to doctors or something who thought he was mentally ill as he says he hears voices and stuff. In fact he could have been chosen by the powers to be their emissary and when in the womb he was given the blood of a demon and a link was formed between him and the powers. It was only when he grew up that they told him this so he could be resentful as his childhood was ruined with everyone thinking he was ill when in fact it was a gift from higher beings.
Of course a lot of this would need to be changed, toyed with for a while. It was just an idea...
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Post by LizaP on Jun 19, 2004 18:36:17 GMT
Could we give him the same kind of background as Drogyn, perhaps? I can't remember exactly how Drogyn became immortal, though. Or if he was ever human.
I think the idea of him being human once is good but he had to have been human a long, long, LONG time ago. He was made demon not on his own accord but because the PTB saw the kind of human he was and wanted him on their side.
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Post by Joss on Jun 19, 2004 21:13:10 GMT
Could we give him the same kind of background as Drogyn, perhaps? I can't remember exactly how Drogyn became immortal, though. Or if he was ever human. I think the idea of him being human once is good but he had to have been human a long, long, LONG time ago. He was made demon not on his own accord but because the PTB saw the kind of human he was and wanted him on their side. This I like. I prefer the idea that he was once a human that was chosen to be a link to the Powers due to something that he did. Sure, he could be demonized later on in his life, but I think that we should show that his roots were human.
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Dismas
Vampire with a Soul
Posts: 97
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Post by Dismas on Jun 19, 2004 21:49:46 GMT
My last post was kind of out there. It's just a bunch of ideas you can all dismiss or incorporate as you like.
Do we really need to clarify the extent of his demon-nature as much as we're trying to do. I like that he was human once and he became powerful somehow, but the how's and why's don't bother me much. There could be some sort of weekly ritual behind it, infusing him with demon blood. Some of his strength must come from his connection to the Powers, like how Hamilton's came from the Senior Partners.
I don't think he needs to literally speak with the voice of the Powers. By the nature of his job he inherently knows their will.
What about his abilities? Since he's an avatar of the PTBs he could have some sort of healing powers, like the ability to lay his hands on a wound and make it all better. The flip side is that he can also grab you suck the life force out.
Tobit could be a first name or a last name, right?. It sounds a little strange when I say it out loud.
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Post by Drew on Jun 19, 2004 22:59:16 GMT
I think the idea of him being human once is good but he had to have been human a long, long, LONG time ago. He was made demon not on his own accord but because the PTB saw the kind of human he was and wanted him on their side. Isn't that kind of like Angel? I was reading the book of Tobit (well, not the whole thing 'cause that was damn long) and he seems to have buried a lot of people. I don't like the idea of him being a warrior (he's not in the book), but I do like that he's had to bury a lot of people. I don't know where I was going with that. I'd just kind of like to see him as a more normal demon/person thing. With a life - a life that the Powers hijack.
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Post by Drew on Jun 19, 2004 23:02:44 GMT
I don't think he needs to literally speak with the voice of the Powers. By the nature of his job he inherently knows their will. What about his abilities? Since he's an avatar of the PTBs he could have some sort of healing powers, like the ability to lay his hands on a wound and make it all better. The flip side is that he can also grab you suck the life force out. Tobit could be a first name or a last name, right?. It sounds a little strange when I say it out loud. Let me just say that, barring any further great suggestions, I'm putting my support in for Tobit (Toebit). I like it. Yeah, I like that he just knows their will, but I kinda think we need to give him some cool way of being connected to them. As for healing/lifeforce sucking powers - part of me is not very thrilled by those (kinda cliche); another part sees cool oportunities with them.
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Post by Joss on Jun 19, 2004 23:05:02 GMT
Okay guys, unless somebody posts a pretty damn good name or reason why we shouldn't call him Tobit in the next 48 hours then the name gets approved.
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chris
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Post by chris on Jun 19, 2004 23:14:30 GMT
I really like the idea of him trying to lead a normal life but he gets hijacked by the powers, almost like in a trance, when they need him to do a job. It could be like he has constant voices in his head. That would be enough to drive anyone mad, gives the character an edge of sorts.
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Post by Joss on Jun 19, 2004 23:28:36 GMT
Idea:
Why don't we have Alan have a kind of Caleb-like relation wirh the Powers. no I don't mean that he goes and stabs the Powers in the eyes (that is pretty much all that anyone remembers from Caleb) but that he merges with them to gain his powers.
In one of the final five buffy eps (End of Days I think it was) we how Caleb merges with the First periodically to gain powers.
Okay, let's say that Alan was kind of like a slayer, before his birth it was said that this being would have a key role to play with the plans of the powers. However, when they contacted him he refused to help. He didn't want anything to do with the Powers.
However, let's that he contracted AIDS. He is dying when an avatar of the Powers visits him. Says that they will save him, give him immortality even, and power, if he becomes their link to the world. Alan agrees.
So now Alan and this avatar merge periodically. They receive a link to the world, he gets 48 more hours of life plus powers.
When we first meet him he is funny, a wisecracker, ext. You know a very "Skipy" attitude (Skip the demon, not that he skips) But as the season progresses he begins to slowly be dominated completly by the powers, begins to become stronger physically but more silent. His morals and opinions change slowly, ext. as the Powers gain more of a hold over him each time they merge.
Just an idea I had. Go ahead and tear it apart.
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chris
Champion
Posts: 124
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Post by chris on Jun 19, 2004 23:42:40 GMT
I really like it! That idea gets my vote.
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