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Fred
May 31, 2004 23:31:43 GMT
Post by seikenus on May 31, 2004 23:31:43 GMT
I would like to see the return of Fred not as a seperate physical being from Illyria but her soul within Illyria. The story could go that Illyria felt some urge to go to Wesley's apartment and once there she feels a massive amount of grief. When she looks at a mirror she sees she has taken Fred's appearance without realizing. This kind of thing happens repeatedly and Illyria realizes the source of these feelings are coming from Fred's soul within her. Before, her demon essence had kept it mostly buried and unaware but now that her power is reduced Fred has more presence in her. Illyria is able to communicate with Fred and this could raise issues such as whether or not to tell the Burkles the truth about Fred. Fred could also act as Illyria's new guide to the world. A conflict could also arise in Illyria in which she is torn between releasing Fred's soul so that it could reunite with Wesley and let him be truly happy with something not a lie and her fear that by releasing Fred she will no longer be able to feel human emotions.
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Fred
May 31, 2004 23:42:00 GMT
Post by Joss on May 31, 2004 23:42:00 GMT
Now we´re talking!
That´s a very interesting idea you got their my friend. It could be very fun to develop that.
One thing tho, we gotta be real careful if we do this. If we do this sloppily, then it turns into just a cheap imitation of the Angel/Angelus conflict.
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Fred
May 31, 2004 23:56:14 GMT
Post by Walt Russell on May 31, 2004 23:56:14 GMT
To keep the Fred/Illyria from being like Angel/Angelus, what if it were a more schizophrenic deal ... whereas Angelus is trapped underneath by Angel's soul, Fred's personality could keep popping out from under Illyria's shell. The more she fought to keep it burried, the more it would surface.
Or does that just seem like a lame-ass, neutered god with Turret's syndrome (i know i misspelled that, oh well).
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Mace
Vampire
Posts: 3
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Fred
Jun 1, 2004 0:00:48 GMT
Post by Mace on Jun 1, 2004 0:00:48 GMT
ok, so, i forgot to log back in before posting that last post ;D
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Fred
Jun 1, 2004 1:32:28 GMT
Post by Drew on Jun 1, 2004 1:32:28 GMT
My feeling is Fred's soul is gone except for a few memories of what emotions are and what they feel like. I think Illyria has enough Fred in her as of the season finale. She has some emotions coupled with being a very good actor. Of course, the problem that arises there is what subject will her emotions surround now that Wesley is dead? Will she just be bitter that her guide is gone? Well, she already did the bitter thing after she got thrown into this new world and then had a lot of her power ripped from her. If they go to another dimension, they could bring someone back - another someone who needs to adjust to this world and Illyria could become THEIR guide. And that would be funny because they both wouldn't be so great at living in this world. Or, as I brought up in the characters section, Groo could return and be her guide. They got some stuff in common, I think. They both talk funny, for one thing.
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Fred
Jun 1, 2004 2:31:53 GMT
Post by tyuun on Jun 1, 2004 2:31:53 GMT
I really like this idea of Fred being more trapped inside than completely dead altogether. I feel Illyria should become more and more like Fred as times passes until they are both as one. So Illyria understands what emotions are and how to deal with them. Maybe, like said before, Freds presence becomes more and more evident and Illyria assumes her form without knowing.
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Fred
Jun 1, 2004 10:40:10 GMT
Post by Doyle on Jun 1, 2004 10:40:10 GMT
I'm all for the orginal idea for S6 with Willow stepping in (okay, thats totally cliche' I know, lol) and splitting the two up. I like this because it helps with the need for female characters people have been moaning about since Cordy left the show, and it allows us to continue to explore Illyria as she is; with fragments of Fred left within her but at its core a somewhat powerless and overall useless god. I'll push for this hard, because I think the two of them seperated would really embody what this season is.
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Fred
Jun 1, 2004 16:31:19 GMT
Post by jibberish on Jun 1, 2004 16:31:19 GMT
the problem with having the two personalities in the same body is that it's been done. in the starwars: the new jedi order series the character tahiri was forced to integrate an artificially created alien personality into her own. the two sides fought until she accepted that they were both parts of who she was. i think any kind of intergration for fred/illyria would be going too far.
the idea of dual roles for amy acker sounds kinda lame too.
i wouldn't mind them separating the two, but put illyria in a different body. then you can play with the relationship of fred and illyria sharing the same memories, but with different perspectives. it would create an interesting famillial bond between them.
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Fred
Jun 1, 2004 17:04:31 GMT
Post by buffelina on Jun 1, 2004 17:04:31 GMT
I'm actually penning an academic essay at the moment that deals with Fred and Illyria (or Fred-Illyria, depending how one looks at it). Just too fascinating and complex a character to not explore on a deeper level! Too bad no S6, because I'd really love to see how Illyria would have developed.
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Fred
Jun 2, 2004 5:34:52 GMT
Post by Drew on Jun 2, 2004 5:34:52 GMT
I'm moving this post from the IDEAS section, where it was originally posted:
If they are to split, can Willow NOT do it. I don't like her just being this person they call to do magic and then toss her back out the door. I'm also against her being a regular. If Fred does come back, though, let's not make it: Oh, her soul WASN'T destroyed after all. Let's make it that most of her soul was destroyed or at least a lot of something of her was destroyed. So if she comes back there is something really wrong with her. How about this: There is only a little bit of Fred left in Illyria. Some of that - or all of that bit - emerge from Illyria and Fred is back. But because it is not all of Fred, she will only be with them for an episode. She will fade away or return back into Illyria or some crap like that. It'd have to make sense within the episode storyline.
OR: We seperate Fred and Illyria. . .but not completely. They are still linked to one another. Not sure how. Lots of ways to go on this. One gets hurt, so does the other. One feels anger, so does the other. They can't go far from one another. Etc. In the first episode that Illyria and Fred are split, Fred may be really dark and really angry. She might want to take revenge on Illyria for what she did. But the others figure out that killing Illyria will kill Fred (again). And when they stop her, Fred tells them she already knows that it will kill her. She's in so much grief over what happened to her and what happened to Wes and Gunn. She's not too happy being alive. Hey! Buffy echoes, anyone? Still, I kinda like it.
Whatever we do - if we do - let's not make it easy for anybody.
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Fred
Jun 2, 2004 5:40:19 GMT
Post by Drew on Jun 2, 2004 5:40:19 GMT
Okay, so question:
If Fred and Illyria split, what will Illyria be like. Her powers will still be diminished, of course, from that big gun blast. But will she be all "I want to conquer the world"? Will she become the enemy again? If so, then they need leverage against her. And having Fred and Illyria be linked (as in, if one dies, the other does, too). It could give rise to some pretty dark moments, too. Say, if Illyria is about to do something terrible, and the only way to stop her is for one of the gang to threaten to kill Fred (or maybe a new member of the gang - it's hard to see Angel or Spike doing this after the events of last year). Illyria would then basically be plotting behind their backs while working with them. . .kind of. And since the W&H building was destroyed, they can't just put her in a cage like Pavayne - (hey, whatever happened to all the caged people? eh, who cares? they're evil) So that's a few more thoughts.
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Fred
Jun 2, 2004 6:19:40 GMT
Post by Drew on Jun 2, 2004 6:19:40 GMT
alright, I'm popping in again:
I'm torn between splitting Illyria and not splitting her.
On one hand, there are some great ideas for what we can do with her if we do split her.
On the other hand, would splitting her make Wesley's death in vain? Because it's been said that what he did with Illyria, the way he guided her, redeemed him as a Watcher. I really like that thought.
Also, a question for Doyle: You've said multiple times that splitting Fred works thematically, and you've said you've said that in other places on this board. I don't really want to scrounge and look for those places. I'd really appreciate it if you could you reiterate for me how it works with this Season 6 theme we're looking at.
Thanks!
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Fred
Jun 2, 2004 6:39:44 GMT
Post by Doyle on Jun 2, 2004 6:39:44 GMT
heya Drew, I think this season will deal primarily with chaos and confusion in relation to the "what now?" theme. By returning Fred back to a somewhat normal state (although I think there should be some "crossover" effects between Illyria and herself), she finds that the men she loved have died. Quite gruesomely too. She just had her soul destroyed (and you though heartburn sucks, ugh) and the bitch-god who did it is now her teamate? They bring her back for this? Yep, whole lot of unhappy and confusion with the real question being "what now?" just like the rest of our crew. I think it would be incredibly interesting to see "dark fred" after she comes back. I mean, story potential wise..... yowza! No problem explaining my point again, I understand what you mean about the board. Nice reflection of Season 6 though. As far as keeping Illyria around, I think its pretty obvious: Angel knows the kind of damage she can do, and he'll want to keep a close eye on her to make sure she doesnt become a big bad again. BTW, sorry if my posts have been increasingly incoherent -my sleep schedule is off and I'm killing a lot of my "drowsy time" on the forums. sorry in advance. lol.
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Fred
Jun 2, 2004 12:47:04 GMT
Post by Joss on Jun 2, 2004 12:47:04 GMT
Okay people, moved the Fred thread from Ideas here to Characters
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Fred
Jun 2, 2004 16:40:55 GMT
Post by jibberish on Jun 2, 2004 16:40:55 GMT
the gradual build up is definately the way to go. you start small with illlyria unconsciously saying a few words in fred's voice, or perhaps humming a melody. later on she begins to change accidentally and she begins to fear that she is not well. by this point into the season she will have already gotten tight with the group; though they still may not completely trust her, or even understand her at times, the comraderie will have formed a bond with everyone that will make them want to help her. with that as the build up in previous episodes, an entire episode could be used to show her going completely schitzophrenic--changing uncontrolably between her two forms, with the fred persona finally shinning through just enough to say "help me" to angel and spike. seeing that there could be something left of fred inside of the shell, they seek out a seer to examine her. the seer feels the powerful energy of illyria's essence/soul, but also something more... fragments... a life sprouting from the shards of a shattered existence. the seer tells them that the shell will not contain both the essence of illyria and fred's soul for very long... the two are intertwinning and fighting for dominance and both will be lost if they cannot be separated. the seer tells them of something magical(it doesn't matter what) that can separate the two, but they would need a new shell for the one pulled out, and a mystic of the highest caliber (enter willow). so angel and spike go on the quest, find the thing bring it back and willow performs the transfer.
in regards to the new shell, it might be interesting to introduce a new character early on in the season who is dying . angel takes her in becos he helps the helpless of course, but it would be nice to see her volunteer. illyria would have a hard time understnding the emotion she would feel over this girls sacrifice.
now comes the emotionally jarring part. what if their souls don't make a clean break, so that aspects of the two exist in both. fred would have memories of everything that had happened and be tormented by the things she can't undo, and yet she'd feel pity for illyria and understand her perspective. fred would be frustrated with having to suffer and not being able to blame anyone. illyria would also finally understand the pain that she had caused them all and go deep with the self-loathing.
the physical angle. fred is only a partial human soul, imbued with only minor aspects of the essence of illyria. if her body is still just a shell then she wouldn't be able to influence it very well...initially, she would have difficulty moving, and there would be trouble adapting to an inability to eat food and such(lack of taste buds, poor sense of smell). she would feel distanced from the world even in her own body and question her very existnace. if you want to go dark, that would be a major opportunity.
allowing these events to visibly play on spike's emotions would be interesting becos he had both an affinity towards fred, and a bond with illyria. both of those reasons would conversly draw fred ( still with illyria's memories) towards spike. they both would also have the living "undead" thing going. he could help her through the transition. should it be a romance? i don't know. i for one thought that spike could have been used for a lot more in S5, his character deserves growth and some measure of a real relationship would take him in a totally new direction.
also, by season's end it would be nice to see fred utilizing some some aspects of illyria's power.
sorry i wrote so much.....i just couldn't stop.
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Fred
Jun 2, 2004 20:11:02 GMT
Post by WilliamtheBloody on Jun 2, 2004 20:11:02 GMT
I think Fred should still be in Illyria, but now she basically has the brains and skills.
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Fred
Jun 2, 2004 21:20:51 GMT
Post by Joss on Jun 2, 2004 21:20:51 GMT
On the contrary Jiberish, Thank you for writing so much. you have some pretty great ideas for the whole Fred/Illyria issue. Only thing I have a problem with is the "(enter Willow)" part.
Now, I personally think that if we bring back Fred she should not immediatly regain her memories. Think about this for a sec:
Fred awakens in a new shell and instantly gains all of the memories of the shit that happened, all Illyria did with her body, Wesley dying... it would be as if someone put a loaded gun to her temple and shot (metaphor shamelessly stolen from Stephen King´s IT). We could have the separation episode end with Fred´s eyes opening. Then the next episode could focus around here having flashes/visions of the past to gain the memories of Illyria.
This would give us a way to set up Fred´s reaction to Wesley and Gunn´s(?) death.
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Fred
Jun 3, 2004 16:04:33 GMT
Post by jibberish on Jun 3, 2004 16:04:33 GMT
the (enter willow) could really be anything. i only used it as a reference that people would understand so i could gloss over it without having to explain something else in detail. it doesn't have to be willow. angel could delve into his darker side and kidnap someone, or they could make a bargain with a dark force that later puts them in debt to this creature...like i said, it could be anything.
fred's memory coming back could be instantaneous if she wasn't able to express it initially. if she opens her eyes but is unable to effect the shell in other ways (to make it move or even speak) then the torment of the things that had happened would effect her, but she would be unable to show that emotion. now imagine her first words to illyria or angel after knowing what happened. imagine the bitterness coming from her hoarse voice. what if she blamed angel for what happened to her and not saving her, or for wesly's death. what if she can barely even sequence the memories. imagine her growing frustrated with the increasing uncertainty of her own identity, living inside her tarnished body that doesn't function the way it used to, being unable to feel emotion like she once did...being unable to properly grieve. i can see her growing so completely angry that she drives her fist through a wall (with no damage to her hand, of course), and the discovery of those emotions(emnity, disgust, revulsion--paralleled to illyria's intial reaction in fred's body S5) leading her to finally break down and cry for her loved ones.
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Fred
Jun 4, 2004 0:21:07 GMT
Post by bisquick on Jun 4, 2004 0:21:07 GMT
bringing Fred back is a bad idea. if reluctantly, it was pretty clear that the guys had accepted Illyria as being the new "host" of her "shell" besides, it kinda makes alot of events that happend in the latter of season five pointless. Her death meant something, let it stay that way
PuppetCancer our
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Fred
Jun 4, 2004 0:51:26 GMT
Post by Joss on Jun 4, 2004 0:51:26 GMT
Hey guys, I'm not clear on one point:
Should we decide to split up Fred and Illyria (which it seems we are) then we are putting Illyria in a different shell, correct? Then is this shell powerful enough to hold Illyria's full glory? Does this mean that she would regain all of her former powers that were lost in Time Bomb?
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