Dismas
Vampire with a Soul
Posts: 97
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Post by Dismas on Jun 4, 2004 22:11:21 GMT
What happens to a living human if his soul is stolen?
A soul stealer could also facilitate the transfer of Illyria into a new shell, if that's what some people want to do.
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Post by LizaP on Jun 5, 2004 6:52:33 GMT
The concept of small villians as opposed to one big bad worked real well in the beginnign but Angel et al are now bonafide heros, having made the journey and learned about themselves - they should come up against some archetypal villian at least once in the season to show that they have in fact completed most of the hero's journey.
Can you tell I watched Joseph Campbell tonght? But so much of the Jossverse is based on that mythos that to ignore it now is to ignore the major lessons - that the fight goes on and you always try to do what's right.
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Post by bisquick on Jun 5, 2004 17:37:13 GMT
I like the soul stealer thing. maybe not for a big bad, but I like it BTW- something tells me Im the only one digging my idead about Gunn exploring his dark side more maybe this soul stealer could have something to do with that PuppetCancer out
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Post by Doyle on Jun 5, 2004 23:41:39 GMT
BTW- something tells me Im the only one digging my idead about Gunn exploring his dark side more PuppetCancer out The thing is, Gunn's character had come full circle (like Wesley essentially becoming Illyria's Watcher) and therefore makes a great exit for the character. Let's say we did bring him back and let him go dark...what then? Have him get killed at the end of the season? Keep him around long enough to make him tragic and kill him off hoping to pull at the readers heartstrings? Or have him find his way back, and redeem his character? Like he already did last season? It just makes no sense. The character has come full circle, his arc has ended. Let Gunn go out a hero, he deserves as much.
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Post by LizaP on Jun 6, 2004 0:59:44 GMT
You know, there never was much discussion on the difference between being cursed with a soul and fighting for one. And I personally think Spike had it easier because he was less of a bastard when he was turned. Angel was mean and nasty and has had to work much much harder to be a better man. This could be a focus for one story. The story with the soul stealer or perhaps one where there is (once again) some sort of prophecy about redemption.
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Post by Joss on Jun 6, 2004 1:24:45 GMT
Hey guys, I just had an idea about the soul collector guy.
The Senior Partners are in trouble because they have got, souled Angel, souled Spike, and Illyria, who is a problem whether she is souled or not. So they have to find a way to lighten the threats.
Enter soul collector person.
He could be a Bounty hunter, who in addition to being an expert in magic dealing around souls he could have a lot of physical power. So, the SP could be paying him 123 gajibazillion dollars to: 1. Return Illyria to her imprisonment 2. "Aquire" the souls of both Spike and Angel, unleashing both William the Bloody and Angelus to LA.
Whether the guy succeeds or not, that I have not decided.
It won't work for a big bad, but could be a villian for a three episode arc.
Let the flaming of my idea comence.
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Post by Drew on Jun 6, 2004 2:03:02 GMT
The only problem I have in dealing with somebody or something that takes away souls is that this is what W&H spent the last four or five years trying to do and The First even tried to do it to both Angel and Spike. Someone's always trying to take away their souls. It gets a little tired after awhile.
Also, I think "Destiny" in S5 did a pretty good job of covering the whole "Spike worked for his soul" and "Angel had it thurst upon him" thing. And then the Mountain Dew thing. That's what is so great about episodes like "Destiny" and "The Girl In Question". You've got these big, heavy issues that will always be around but will never be resolved so why not laugh at it?
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PuppetCancer
Champion
I do NOT have puppet cancer!
Posts: 108
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Post by PuppetCancer on Jun 6, 2004 6:16:32 GMT
The thing is, Gunn's character had come full circle (like Wesley essentially becoming Illyria's Watcher) and therefore makes a great exit for the character. Let's say we did bring him back and let him go dark...what then? Have him get killed at the end of the season? Keep him around long enough to make him tragic and kill him off hoping to pull at the readers heartstrings? Or have him find his way back, and redeem his character? Like he already did last season? It just makes no sense. The character has come full circle, his arc has ended. Let Gunn go out a hero, he deserves as much. I dont think hes gone full circle. I think theres alot more to him. but no, if he were to go dark, imo(my perfect world) that would be it. I'm telling ya, guys, I really think theres some interesting stuff yet to be done with Gunn. He's a human, and IMO, I think the humans are far more interesting characters than the demons. as weve seen in s5 hes very flawed and is desperate for more. just because he tried to redeem himself(Underneath) does not mean he's repented. Also, the argument could be made that he only did what he did to forget what he did(follow) which might be a cowards way out. Hes the only human left. hes always had some sorta conflicting views on demons, and this could be interesting. I think this would make him grow apart from the group, and make the transition more fluid. (debatable) he still has all that legal-ese. he could do great things now. strike out on his own start his own business or something. or if he doesnt have his legalese anymore, showing more of that power hungry side. but regardless, no, I think itd be corny for him to be bad then be good again. itd be a change he wouldnt come back from. a lil like warren- at first he was just annoying then he started killing people. he did this cuz he was neglected and undermined(like gunn) therefore he did what he thought was "right" no coming back. I dunno, I just think theres alot of stuff yet to be done with Gunn. PuppetCancer out
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Post by IAMCHRSGEMATL on Jun 8, 2004 16:30:06 GMT
On Spikes soul its always angered me how it came across. In s6 spike tried to use magic to get him to forget about buffy and tried everything else to get rid of his feelings bc well it made him a pussy. It was bad enough for him to have that chip but now being in love with the slayer?? When the season finale of the sixth season aired they made it look like he had enough and he was going to get made whole again by getting that chip taking out. Througout the trials and everything the Shaman made fun of him on how Buffy and the chip affected him and he just keeps saying im going to give her what she deserves. Then finally the Shaman is like, "Very well, I now restore your soul" Spike screams "Noooo!" and the shaman lays his hand on spike and thats that.
New season comes and its all about how he wanted to give Buffy the kind of man she deserved - man with a soul. And how he should have learned from Angel being cursed with one and yada yada yada. It infruiates me because i think in reality (if any of this was reality that is) Spike went to get his chip taken out magically or whatever just so he could be the big bad again, i think it backfired. Thats always how i took it but then the new season started and its all about poor spike trying to do whats right. He was evil dammit!!! He didnt want a soul he wanted revenge!!! Grrr. Just something that has been bothering me for a long time. Actually its one of the reasons I havent liked spikes character since.
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Post by Drew on Jun 8, 2004 17:36:02 GMT
Okay, we're just gonna have to put this argument to rest - the argument about Spike going to get his soul. Because he WAS going to get his soul - not the chip out. Joss has said this. The way Spike was headed throughout the show was essentially a slow weening off of evil. Finally, he tried to rape her and realized it just wasn't working anymore - too many conflicting feelings. So he does the opposite of what he wants to do. He tries to be good - to get his soul.
They wanted people to think he was getting the chip out - and they tried a little too hard to get people to think that - with the dialogue and stuff. It came off as kind of clumsy. But whatever.
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Post by Doyle on Jun 9, 2004 0:39:23 GMT
Okay, I got a "pitch" for our "big bad". But not really.
We've tossed around the idea of Alan Tudyk as being the big bad, but we had no idea what he would do. But now it seems we're all thinking about having Angel have to take th PTB down a notch to even things out....
How about having Alan Tudyk show up as their new "liason" to the PTB replacing Cordy? He could prove to be a mirror/counterpoint of Hamilton.
What do you think?
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Post by Drew on Jun 9, 2004 1:01:23 GMT
What does a liason to the PTB do?
Cordy had visions and sent them out to kill demons. I thought we didn't want visions, though. So what would Alan do?
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Post by Doyle on Jun 9, 2004 1:04:29 GMT
Okay, no visions....that is LAW.
I figured he would be a recurring character, not a regular, who the PTB send in to check on Angel, saying he is to help guide them on their new path and give them "imporant" bits of info, when in reality he is keeping tabs on them and trying to keep them away from the truth.
or something.
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Post by Drew on Jun 9, 2004 1:17:02 GMT
He could kind of be a counterpoint to Grace. Maybe when she made herself human, she did it in such a way that TPTB don't know what human she is. So Alan doesn't know that Grace was a former PTB, but she knows that he is lying, that he's keeping the truth from them - the truth that Angel & Co. will eventually reveal through the Good Apocolypse.
Hmmm. . .
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Post by Drew on Jun 9, 2004 1:19:02 GMT
So he'd have two liasons. one that is in contact with the PTB but is rotten. The other that can barely remember who she once was, but has all the real secrets locked up in her brain somewhere.
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Post by Doyle on Jun 9, 2004 1:23:09 GMT
It's def. a workable idea, but I'd like to brainstorm on it more. Maybe its not that he doesnt recognize her, but instead, its that she never is around when he is...purely by coincidence, and when he does find out she is working with "team Angel", that is when the PTB decide to do something. Maybe send other champions after them? Maybe even Groo....easily fed lies about what happened to Cordy....?
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Post by Drew on Jun 9, 2004 1:25:40 GMT
Maybe its not that he doesnt recognize her, but instead, its that she never is around when he is...purely by coincidence, and when he does find out she is working with "team Angel", that is when the PTB decide to do something. Maybe send other champions after them? Maybe even Groo....easily fed lies about what happened to Cordy....? Oh fuck! I love this idea! LOVE IT!!!!!! well, not the coincidence part so much since I don't like coincidences - but it could work. But the part about TPTB sending another team after Angel is just really cool. It works because TPTB are trying to establish the balance and suddenly Angel is a threat. And that goes with the theme of taking things into their own hands. I have to think about this more. I like Groo, too.
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Post by Drew on Jun 9, 2004 1:31:19 GMT
And I like the thought of Alan telling lies to Groo about what happened to Cordy. Not sure what the lies would be yet. Maybe that The Powers took, chose her, because she was special. And Angel selfishly wanted her back.
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Post by Doyle on Jun 9, 2004 1:41:44 GMT
Oh fuck! I love this idea! LOVE IT!!!!!! well, not the coincidence part so much since I don't like coincidences - but it could work. But the part about TPTB sending another team after Angel is just really cool. It works because TPTB are trying to establish the balance and suddenly Angel is a threat. And that goes with the theme of taking things into their own hands. I have to think about this more. I like Groo, too. Maybe its not so much a matter of coinicidence as it is just unlikely? She wasn't going to be full on Team Angel for a while right? Or had we decided on that yet? So maybe its not odd that they don't happen to be at the same place at the same time. Damn, I hate that all our material is out in the open for everyone to see. We might have to look into getting passwords set up as the story is really taking shape now.
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Post by Drew on Jun 9, 2004 1:46:20 GMT
I don't know if we'd decided on that yet.
I think it might be better if Alan doesn't recognize her, and then something changes to make him finally understand who she is. We can think of something, I'm sure. Plus, it'd be cooler for alan to finally realize that Grace - a character he's never much thought about - is his nemesis.
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