Good Apocalypse

[LizaP]

You know, it wouldn't have to be just a demon - demons and PTB-trying-to-restore-balance could work together .. somehow. Even if they didn't know they were working together (like the Alan Tudyk character and Grace never running into each other).. this is going to require more thought on my part than is kicking out right now but what do you all think?

[Jaxxson]

Drew said:

If this board had a smiley with its brain exploding....I would use that smiley.

I think Chris suggested something like this about the demon causing the chaos. I'm not sure if I'm a fan of the idea - I could be, but I'd have to think about it more.

I'll see if i can find one we might not be albe to use it like the smileys you might have to add an img link but it could work

[Jaxxson]

I couldn't fine a smiley so i made one



I'll make it better for some reason my anamation shop its turing it ornage I just relise that when making this post so i'll add color to it but you can see what it looks like




SWEET
*dose victorie dance*

[chris]

Drew said:

I think Chris suggested something like this about the demon causing the chaos. I'm not sure if I'm a fan of the idea - I could be, but I'd have to think about it more.

Yeah I had an idea on the Big Bad board, the demon was created by the powers to keep the chaos going. If the chaos early stopped then man's eves may become opened to what is going on around them before the powers could shift the balance back again and thus take a hold over destiny again... what u think? Maybe lame, just an idea.

[Dismas]

Doyle said:

That works really well. What better grand revelation than forcing people to accept that there are demons among them?

Sometimes I don't realize how good the metaphors on Buffy and Angel are until I say them out loud. Hearing what you said there made me feel the same way. Revealing the demon world to the humans who have ignored it for so long is a metaphor for forcing people to acknowledge their own personal evils and demons that they hide from themselves.

[Drew]

Dismas said:

Sometimes I don't realize how good the metaphors on Buffy and Angel are until I say them out loud. Hearing what you said there made me feel the same way. Revealing the demon world to the humans who have ignored it for so long is a metaphor for forcing people to acknowledge their own personal evils and demons that they hide from themselves.

Yes, this is definitely looking like a good idea. Brain exploding again. But in a good way.

[Jaxxson]

[Doyle]

Jaxxson said:

lol

[Joss]

Dismas said:

Sometimes I don't realize how good the metaphors on Buffy and Angel are until I say them out loud. Hearing what you said there made me feel the same way. Revealing the demon world to the humans who have ignored it for so long is a metaphor for forcing people to acknowledge their own personal evils and demons that they hide from themselves.

This gets my official thumbs up. Great idea that can work out great in terms of the theme and story we have.

[Joss]

Oh, and



ROFL

[PuppetCancer]

I, too, think this is a good idea. Humans becoming more aware of what is "underneath"

Now, someone has stated their idea of a "good apocalypse" being something(correct if Im wrong) more involving humans. Along the lines of them taking charge more. becoming better "leaders" so to speak

IMO, I dont think that would necessaryily be a warlike apocalypse. I just see humans doing more. consciously trying to make L A a better place.

so if we go with that, or something along those lines, an idea I had for one of these human to try to make LA a better place for the 21st century is Jack Connelly

correct me if Im wrong, I think thats his name. U know, the mayor that Angel helped believe he was a pedophile. it also goes with the theme of consequences and repercussions, as that happened do to them taking the deal. itd be interesting to see them fix that one.

I also have an idea about Connor. small one, but something. lemme know if I should express it, guys

Cancer out

[Drew]

PuppetCancer said:

so if we go with that, or something along those lines, an idea I had for one of these human to try to make LA a better place for the 21st century is Jack Connelly

I also have an idea about Connor. small one, but something. lemme know if I should express it, guys

Cancer out

In NO ways should you express that idea, whatever it is. What do you think this is, an open forum, anyone free to speak whatever they want - oh yeah, sorry, go right ahead.

As for Connelly, no one cares about him or will remember him. Why would it be meaningful in any way for him to become a leader? The audience would simply not care.

[Joss]

Man Drew, you are really going to be helpful in the "One Liners" department.

[PuppetCancer]

Drew said:

In NO ways should you express that idea, whatever it is. What do you think this is, an open forum, anyone free to speak whatever they want - oh yeah, sorry, go right ahead.

As for Connelly, no one cares about him or will remember him. Why would it be meaningful in any way for him to become a leader? The audience would simply not care.

yeah ur right noone would really care.

Bastard

as for Connor, if we're even gonna incorporate him into the season somehow I dunno. but have him continue to do the college thing yadda. and maybe towards the end Grace or someone connected, could just tell Angel "dont worry about him, he will make U proud"

not much thought. Not saying hes gonna be president when he grows up, but just an outstanding pillar of the community

[dano]

Been thinking about this whole "good apocalypse" thing, and liking it, as well as the idea of the PTBs being the Big Bad. But all the order/chaos/balance stuff, good and evil and whatnot, has been getting me down a little bit.

This is what I would put forth as the big problem with (and arising from it, the big solution for) the Powers That Be. I think that the most offensive thing about the Powers That Be, if one starts thinking about it from a certain perspective, isn't what they may be up to now or what they may have been up to at other points, but the simple fact that THEY DON'T LIVE 'ROUND HERE. The Senior Partners couldn't take corporeal form, neither can the PTB's.....so what business do they have ordering the events and balances of this world, even with the best of intentions? This isn't their world, and whoever elected them the Powers That Be, it certainly wasn't the humans (and demons) who live here. Maybe our heroes wiping out the Black Thorn caused all the chaos, in one sense, but in another, very real sense, the chaos was caused by all these meddling Powers trying to impose "balance" or whatever rather than letting this world find its own balance, its own equilibrium, according to its own rules, its own internal logic.

To get all ecosystem-y about it, what the PTBs have been up to since time immemorial seems in a certain way like it could mimic what the National Forest Service was up to for decades when it tried to "manage" forests and forest fires by screwing with the organic order by which forests remain healthy. For a long time they thought fires were bad, so they tried to stop them all, and now the ecology of forests, especially in the west, is so screwed up that we have these massive fires that really wouldn't occur on the same scale if we'd just let things be. Forest fires are a natural part of how forests keep healthy and survive, even though they sometimes kill trees and sometimes destroy property. Sorry for the long discursion about forests--I do love to extend a metaphor--but I'm thinking that the Powers That Be are perhaps guilty of the same kind of arrogant, patronizing, ultimately incorrect conviction that they know best about how to maintain the spiritual ecosystem of our plane of existence, despite the fact that they can't even live here.

If we were to take this philosophical tack with regard to the PTBs, it would open up a couple of different routes for the development of Grace and Tobit in our season. It might be that Grace began to realize that she (and the Powers) were essentially imposing abstract ideas upon this world they were supposed to be nurturing, and developed deep misgivings about that, and that was, at least in part, why she quit. In fact, the last vision to Cordy might have been done with the approval of the PTB hierarchy, and it wasn't until it was beginning to go down that she realized that this might just make things worse. I dunno.

As for Tobit, he might not even have to be doing anything particularly evil for the gang to eventually realize that he was not a force for good. All it would take would be a few well-meaning sorties by the gang under his guidance that, while doing some good, also wind up having some really problematic unforeseen consequences. Which might take him in a more tragic direction, at least for awhile, because even if he's the agent of the Powers, it seems like we're leaning in the direction of making him at least nominally human, so even he would see the aforementioned unforeseen consequences and come to have doubts and pangs of conscience about whether his bosses really know what they're doing, or have the judgement to make decisions about making things better (or "restoring the balance", or whatever). At which point, perhaps, the PTBs begin to doubt his trustworthiness, and, not wanting or being able to see the truth in his critiques of their plans, just pretty much take him over.

And as for the apocalypse itself, the good apocalypse, ultimately it would amount to the banishment of the influence of the PTBs from our plane of existence. Somehow. Close down, or destroy, all their conduits to this plane. Given that they've been running our world, apparently, for a good long time, I'd say that that might qualify as an "end of the world". We could probably work the whole "making humans see the demons among them" thing into it too, somehow.

So that's what I'm thinkin'. Feel free to rip to shreds.

Cheers,
Dan

[Drew]

I agree with basically all of that. That's how we've been thinking about it, i believe.
Grace came down to earth because she knew that the Powers were in charge but that they really weren't making things better. That's her mission and Angel's.
And I agree with what you say about Tobit. I'd like to see him maybe start to turn in a direction away from the Powers but then be taken over.
And I really like the idea of cutting the Powers off from our dimension. I'd never thought of that, and it definitely deserves more thought. We don't have down exactly what the Good Apoc is going to be yet, besides the showing humans that demons exist (but that may not be enough).

Welcome to the site.

[Inyan]

Yip, all that feels right. I think that should be the goal, get them gone, kinda like " Screw you guys, your'e going home " sort of thing. Speaking of that, Dont you guys think Spike would be a SouthPark fan?

[Dismas]

I like the idea of cutting the Powers off from this dimension as a kind of finale. I imagine many character would not be thrilled at this idea. Sounds interesting.

I have nothing intelligent to add right now.