Ep. Idea "Sweet Child of Mine."

[Knuckles]

Sweet Child of Mine.

Note: Flashbacks would be required

This episode unlike the Girl with the Golden Touch was named after the song after the idea came up so don’t accuse me of randomly bringing ideas out of songs

As we know Angel (Liam) whored his way through his human life and so the idea of this episode was to have Liam to get one of these whores pregnant and the child eventually became a Vampire and has been searching for Angel for quite some time looking for revenge for simply abandoning his mother when he found out she was pregnant (this could or could not be a lie.)

There were a few ideas to how this would go firstly is that the vampire gets to know Spike first of all believing him to be his farther and capturing him and torturing him while Angel and Co come to his aid.

Another was to have someone killing around LA claiming to be Angel’s son, Angel suspects Connor (insert reason here.) and seeks him out but finds out that its wrong. Angel’s “Son” then captures Connor and tortures him envying him and what he could have.

Another could be having Angelus and the “Son” Fight along side each other but I don’t much like that.

An off the wall idea could be having his as a reoccurring character by getting him a soul but that may make Connors existence seem futile

My favourite is that the vampire enters the Shelter claiming to be a vampire with a soul who needs guidance. He gets to know Angel and starts fighting for the good before he reveals himself and that he used a spell on himself to make him seem ensouled and then Angel eventually kills him. This episode could then end with Angel going to visit Connor standing outside his house looking in then Connor comes out and asks Angel if he wants to come in Angel decides its best that he doesn’t and he turns and leaves. (never seeing Connor again?)

Seeing as Ep. 4 dealt with Angel coming to terms with the loss of Cordy, Gunn, Fred, Wesley and Lorne I figure this episode could be quite painful for Angel in the way that he has to now deal with his son knowing everything but not being with him.

This episode could although this idea came after as inadvertent, but it could fulfil “The Farther Will Kill the Son.” Prophecy but that would be a stretch.

An alternative title is: Bitter Kid of Mine. But the word bitter was a little too ambiguous I thought.

[Everlong]

Knuckles said:

“The Farther Will Kill the Son.”

I thought Angel already did that. He, in a way, killed Connor by removing him from his current existance and giving him a new life. The Connor that was his son was dead and to the others he never existed. But thats just my take on it.

[Knuckles]

There was ambiguity to it I think, Seeing as Connor isn’t dead to him any more and Sahjhan did say in S5 that some prophecies are false which could be referring to him think that The Farther will Kill the Son will never happen but in this way (what with the universe now trying to correct itself with the Senior Partners could reintroduce the prospect of this prophecy in another attempt to repair itself.

But like I said the idea of that came after the idea of the story so isn’t an important factor.

[Joss]

Okay, first off, I love the idea of using that title and am tempted to make this episode just to be able to use that name. ;D ;D

Now, as for the episode idea I gotta agree with you, that final choice is the best one. I do like it a lot. But it might be a bit risky since it has some very serious similarities to the Connor storyline. The other one that I kinda like is the Spike one. Maybe we could somehow incorporate those two.

I'm getting a feeling that this episode could be great but also carries a lot of weight under which it could fall and be terrible. But it could be very good with a lot of if. If it's written brilliantly. If the story that we develop is great but also seperate enough from connor that people won't think we're just reusing old ideas. If (this one might just be my sick mind) Liam did know about this child but decided to abandon the woman. We've had Angel feel guilt over the many lives he took as Angelus. Maybe we could have him feel guilt over how his lifestyle as Liam destroyed some lives.

So I don't really know about this one. It has a lot of potential but the booby traps that surround it are quite plentiful. It would just have to be executed in an absurdly brilliant and original way to work. Not saying we can't do it, just saying we'll have to bust our balls to really make this one work if we push forward with it. More than usual I mean.

My five cents on the prophecy: Wasn't that one a fake planted by Sahjan? I think that he said that he made up that prophecy to save his own skin back in season three's Forgiving.

[Knuckles]

Just a note: Doyle means Dark Stranger in Irish which is quite fitting really seeing as we only gradually know information about his life.

Angel

Episode 6.XX

”Sweet Child of Mine.”
By Knuckles.

Tom Welling as Dooley (means Dark Hero.)

Teaser.

We see although not directly the birth of a demon, Tobit delivers the baby and leaves to get a new pair of gloves as the gang congratulate the mother who thanks them for being there… then the baby thanks them for being there. Illyria asks why it is that vampires cannot reproduce after a painful moment with a single framed shot of Connor after defeating Hamilton in Not Fade Away. Angel explains that after they die they can no longer reproduce.

We see a woman attacked by two vampires from a rooftop a person drops into the alley attacks and kills the vampires. The woman approaches him from behind but freaks when he turns around and is vamped out she runs off as he unvamps and walks in the other direction. (This scene will have similarities with the first teaser of Angel ep1 series 1.)

ACT 1.

We see ye old Ireland and a woman is giving birth and is in quite some pain the woman is handed her child and being asked who the farther is although week and panting she coldly says a bastard.

We see Angel lost in thought looking at the child with its mother, Tobit walks in and asks him if he still thinks about Connor Angel turns around in shock but Tobit calms him down saying the Powers told him about Connor and the whole deal. Angel says he does but it doesn’t matter just one more emotion kept inside that he just hasn’t dealt with yet.

We see a group of vampires in a warehouse talking we also see a group of humans all beaten in the corner there are three vampires all together. They are talking about different events such as that rock guy who made the sun go out that was cool, They then go for a bite to eat but one gets dusted from behind and we see the vampire from before behind him the other, the other two ask who he is he say’s he is Dooley with only a hint of Irish, the three fight and eventually Dooley wins and sets the humans free.

Again in old Ireland we see Dooley being sired by a vampire when he awakes the vampire says that his farther Liam has become a vampire by the name Angelus and if he really wants to kill him he will need his help. Dooley looks at him then stakes him and says he needs no help from a wretched demon from hell and he will kill Angelus.

We see Dooley looking down on the Demon Shelter.

Act 2

We see Dooley’s mother partially pregnant in old Ireland she is mid way through a conversation with Liam who is panicking about her being pregnant Liam keeps going from panicking to angry and vice versa until he gets so angry that he tells her to get her things and leave the Galway or he’ll make sure she never work anywhere again. She is crying and leaves but she turns back to him and says that one day their child will seek vengeance on him.

We see Dooley still looking down on the shelter when angel and a demon leave we see Angel POV walking with the demon who Is wearing a big over coat and a detective hat (like Lorne would wear.) we find out through conversation that he is the babies farther called Ted and has only just returned from Japan bringing relatives who were out of reach when the baby arrived a day early. Angel and the demon are going to by the child some supplies Angel asks why they didn’t have these things before but the man says the duration of pregnancy for Gorgan demons is only a week so there is little time to prepare. Angel walks past an alley and we see a female vampire feeding on a man Angel says he’s sorry but has to go to work the Demon says he’ll help, as his species is very strong.

We see Angel running up the alley and meet a female vampire feeding on a man who is now dead, she says tastes like chicken then looks at Angel, she taunts the vampire with a soul trying to do good in a world without good or evil only grey. Angel simply throws a stake and dusts her. Ted laughs and says that was easy Angel says the cockier they are the harder they fall. Then we see Ted’s neck be broken and he falls to the ground with Dooley standing behind him. Who stands looking at Angel and says “Hey dad.”

We cut back to the same alley where Angel asks why he killed Ted, Dooley says he was an evil demon, Angel says no he was a good demon he had a soul. Dooley says there are no good demons only good humans. Angel asks him why he called him dad. Dooley introduces himself by name then asks Angel to take a trip down memory lane and asks him if he remember a Whore called Paili. Angel nods in disbelief as Dooley introduces himself as Liam’s son. He dives and fights Angel they brawl for a bit no one getting the upper hand but Angel is about to stake Dooley when he stops short and Dooley taunts him asking him if his conscious is so clean that he can kill his own dead flesh and blood. Angel says that his Flesh and blood is dead just like his own and knocks him out and picks him up.

Angel bursts through a set of doors and we find ourselves in a basement area Angel quickly chains Dooley to the wall before Dooley wakes up. Dooley gets mad and says, “I will kill you farther.” Angel says, “You’ve already killed one farther tonight I think you’ve had your fill.” Then leaves

ACT 3.

Angel returns to the Demon Shelter holding a body in a black bin bag. Tobit runs too Angel and asks who that is, Angel explains it was Ted that they were attacked by a demon and it killed Ted and almost killed him. Spike asks what type of Demon, Angel hesitates for a moment and says it doesn’t matter because it’s dead now and what matters is telling and comforting the mother and child. Tobit and Angel go off to the side as the others walk away.

Tobit asks what really happened, Angel says his son… Tobit interrupts and says Connor? Angel says no from before he was a vampire his son that he abandoned has come back now as a vampire to kill him. Angel says he has him held somewhere he thinks should be safe and is going to see him.

We see Dooley awaken and look up and Angel standing straight arms behind his back looking. Dooley calls him a bastard for what he did to his mother. Angel says he’s sorry for what he did the pain he caused her but there is nothing he can do about it now. Angel asks what happened to her. Dooley says she became very ill after he was turned and there was not long left for her. Angel asks if he turned her? But Dooley says he loved her too much to turn her into evil he simply nursed her as best he could until her death. Angel asks what he has been doing since then. He says he has been killing others like him and demons as he meets them saving human lives living off minimal blood from butchers he has only fed once of a human and it made him sick to see what he has become.

Angel asks how long he has been hunting him, he replies since his birth, he also says he almost gave up because he realised that Liam was dead only a demon remained but then he hears of this really nasty demon ate the wrong gypsy and got cursed with his human soul. So he hunted again because Liam is there within the bastard who abandoned his mother. Angel says he can’t make up for his crimes as a human or a vampire but he has a soul now he helps people good people he makes a difference. Dooley says it’s too little too late.

Just then a body is thrown through the only door to the basement and a young girl lands at the bottom in lots of pain, five vampires walk down looking at their prey before they see Angel and Dooley, Angel tells them to leave but instead they decide their going to kill Angel and release one of their brethren. They fight and Angel manages to dust one before the other two are about to kill him, but Dooley smacks them both on the head with the chains he has now ripped out of the walls then he grabs the stake and dusts them. Angel tells the girl to leave and Angel and Dooley look at each other in what seems like a moment of clarity between the two. Then Dooley smacks him over the head with the chains.

[Knuckles]

Act 4

Dooley keeps beating Angel with the chains saying how he ruined lives and now believes he can do good in a world he doesn’t belong in and that tonight he will get his vengeance and the soul of his mother can finally rest. Angel says that his mother was a whore hardly a good person herself but Dooley disagrees saying she did what she had to for herself and her son not like Liam who only cared about himself, that’s why Dooley hunts vampires because he has never wanted anything since he became a vampire other than to kill Angel, so he does good for other people because that’s what his mother taught him to do. Angel grabs one of the chains and throws Dooley into a wall he says he’s sorry for what he did to his mother but he can’t do anything about it and he is needed for a reason on Earth and he’s not letting some bitter child wannabe hero get in the way, Dooley calls him weak, Angel says he may be but he has a place in the world and its his duty to keep it then he stakes Dooley against a wall who then says “That his demons will always haunt him no matter what he does.” then dusts. Angel sighs and says I know.

Angel is standing outside a house looking in we go though a wall and see Connor and his family at the dinner table until Connor looks at the window although the curtains are drawn he says he will be a minute and gets up. He walks outside and sees Angel; he neither calls him Dad or Angel in the conversation. He asks him what he’s doing here and Angel says just making sure he’s ok, Connor says he is and asks him if he wants to come inside Angel takes a very long moment and says no it’s best he doesn’t, Connor says ok and says anytime though and goes back inside. Angel waits a moment looking at the house and Tobit takes a step up to his right and talks about how hard it must be to know that something in the world that you could never have but did is there knows all about you but can never be with you. Angel looks at Tobit and says it’s better this way, Tobit agrees but says it still must be hard, Angel nods and says yes… yes it is and leaves with Tobit a few passes behind.

End.

This script needs some work obviously but I think it’s better than The Girl With The Golden Touch scripts I’ve done.

[Joss]

Well, I stand by what I say before about this episode. It has potential to be great, but it is surrounded in every possible direction by a stupefyingly large amount of booby traps. It would take brilliant writing to make it work. And, honestly, I'm not sure that it would work out at all.

While reading this outline I got a feeling that it might be a bit too similar for the "Lost Kids" episode that we've got for episode 10. I hadn't thought of it before but we are doing an episode where vampire children from the past come and haunt a character already.

I'm not so sure about the way that the outline is leaning towards. I know that it's just a tentative structure and it can be tampered with but just the basic feeling that comes off puts me a bit uneasy. There are just some very odd elements like the whore vowing that her son would seek revenge that to me don't work at all. Plus I don't like the idea of having the son basically "be good" and be like a crusader of the night and hating the taste of human blood. I'd much rather have him just be evil (although that might just be me).

(Weird idea I just got: maybe because of the chaos some vampires start acting like that. Vampires are very caught in the middle of the demon-human boundries and some of the rules that apply to them might start to get bent. Maybe this could be one of the first ones to feel the pull of the chaos?)

so summing up I'm getting a feeling that this episode might just not work. The pitfalls in it might prove to be too numerous. But that could just be me being cynical.

[Knuckles]

Seeing as you havent given me an outright now yet I may aswel retort.

I admit that the point from Angel meeting his son onwards is a tad dodgey and could use some rework. But I think the opening is pretty solid the birth of another demon in the shelter is a great way to open the episode I think.

I also had the idea of instead of having thi child be a son, why not a daughter which could take the sstory slightly further away from Connor.

But I do think I delt with Connor well instead of bringing him up when Angel meet shis new "Son." instead the episode referances him a little before hand to build it up.

Also I think the child's siring could be redone and a tad longer for a better effect.

I also really like my ending, the ending is similar to that of the script I sent in to "Join the Team." It makes for a good way too see Angel's painful choice personified.

[Joss]

Hey, I'd like to apologise in case my last post was a bit too harsh. I didn't mean to be but I might have said things in a little too extreme way. While I'm uneasy about the episode in general there are some elements in there that I think are great. The ending has tons of potential and it could really be great. And I like the whole sub-plot about the birth at the shelter and the father. I like that a lot actually. And I'm really tempted to make this episode just to be able to use the “You’ve already killed one farther tonight I think you’ve had your fill.” bit. I think that's great.

I'm not saying that we should throw this episode away right now. But I am a little concerned about some of the elements in it at the moment. But hey, that's what we have these boards for, taking ideas, discussing them, and reshaping and working out the kinks in them.

But it might also be a good idea to hear opinions besides mine on this thing. What do you guys think of all this?

[Drew]

That Liam once had a child with a whore is an interesting idea. Personally, if Angel were to find out about this child, I'd be more interested if the child had not been turned into a vampire. I'd prefer something more unique to happen.

And as Joss said, there are large booby traps:

1) Everyone and their mother is coming from Angel's past to seek revenge on him for something or other. This is just one more.

2) Angel already had a son. While this is different, it gives the impression of retracing old material.

I do like the idea of a demon giving birth in the Shelter. I think we should use that and set someone up fairly soon as a pregnant demon maybe. Unless the womb-time lasts only a week.

[Knuckles]

I couldn't really think of a way of the child to be in our time without it being a vampire, But the other reason the child was a vampire was to bring another dimension to Vampires.

People can hate themselves we know this suicides etc people dont like their life who they are etc, well in a vampire this syndrome can only be worse to see what they have become, obviously this would be rare they dont have a soul but it could happen. Angel's child hates what he is what he has become because he hated evil before he became a vampire so he does what he can but his only goal has been to kill Liam, I thought this backstory made the character better than being a random vamp that is also Liam son.

Everyone from Angel's past does seem to come back to haunt him I agree but this does have another quality that he has to atone for his crimes as Liam rather than Angel in this episode, but also if it were too spred over two Episodes

Episode "Sweet Child of Mine."
Episode "Knocking on Heavens Door"

One after the other to build it up some more say with the child being sired given more back story to make his sire seem less like Holtz but to also take the child away from being Connor (If you think my episode doesn't do this enough anyway.)

Also about the pregnant Demon, it's your Party i'm just a guest so if you want to use that idea that's fine by me, I have some preconceptions of what the demon looks like if you'd want to hear. The whole "Week" pregnancy thing was an excuse to get Angel and the Farther to leave the shelter.

[MrSenator]

To me, the outline given reminds me of "Why We Fight" - a vampire who in many ways was created by Angel, having been the only vamp that Angel sired since getting his soul, who comes back to make him pay for his sins. Personally, I hated that episode, but it was probably because of the insipid submarine flashbacks...but the point was they were drawing a comparison between Lawson and Connor...I think this story could very easily come too close to Connor's storyline and Lawson's story.
That being said, I think there is also potential for greatness here. I think it would be better if Angel (Liam) didn't know about the child, because wouldn't Angel have been feeling guilty about abandoning it all these years? YES, of course. If this child existed, reallistically it would have come up at some point, I don't think you can explain around that.
Another thing, bringing the child back as somehow good or at least morally ambiguous will make it much less powerful. Plus, Connor and Lawson were both morally ambiguous already. If this kid exists, make it EVIL.
I also like the idea of Angel having a daughter, VERY MUCH. Especially if she were to stick around for more than just an episode. This would be one easy way to differentiate between the stories used previously.
I liked the idea about the vamp child coming back and abducting and torturing Connor. That has real potential.
And I agree that the father will kill the son prophecy is spent. To me, this one was culminated when Angel "killed" Connor by slicing his throat and removing him from that life, giving him a new one. Even though yes, the prophecy was a fake, it came true in a way. That one is taken care of, IMO.

Again, this idea has loads of potential...

[Knuckles]

I have to dissagree with you on some points.

This episode isn't about Angel's crimes in the past or his sins it's about Liam's life and the effects he made as an ordinary person. Angel has always been about redemption but we have scarcley seen his pre-vapuric life and he has never really come to terms with it. In Not Fade Away he even says he can no longer remember what life was like being human.

Angel has been redeeming his sins as Angelus all this time but in this episode he would be sought out not for what he did as Angel or Angelus but Liam the human that had no clue of the "Other world." that existed around him but still sinned and affected people all the same.

I preffered my way of dealing with Connor in this episode than being tourtured because if well written could appear painful to the audiance seeing just how big the gap is between him and Connor now.

Also if this did expand two episodes i'd put more into the person that sires the child and their backstory.

[Inyan]

MrSenator said:

To me, the outline given reminds me of "Why We Fight. Personally, I hated that episode

I thought that was on of the best...

[Joss]

Inyan said:

I thought that was on of the best...

lol, I've actually got a very love/hate thing going on with that episode of Angel. I like the parts aboard the sub a lot but I hate the parts in real time to death. Those were just so cliched and boring. And in the long run the episode didn't bring anything new to the table nor did it matter in the long run.

[Drew]

The worst part of that ep was its placement in the season. Right after "You're Welcome". Then "Why We Fight". What the fuck? Complete let-down.