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Post by Joss on Jun 5, 2004 4:01:46 GMT
Okay guys,
This is probably the singe and most important issue that is slowing us down, we need to settle it once and for all.
The "Fred" thread down in characters has a lot of pros and cons for this issue. Now, I am practically begging you guys, read EVERY SINGLE POST in that thread before making your vote here it is essential.
Guys remember, to be able to vote on the polls you need to be both registered and logged in. Guests, even if you are registed but not logged in, are not allowed to vote.
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Post by Drew on Jun 5, 2004 16:26:23 GMT
I have voted yes, even though I partly agree with no. So let's do this thing well. This post of mine was probably completely unnecessary. I like typing. ;D
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Post by ChrsgemATL on Jun 6, 2004 0:55:17 GMT
Im new so sorry if this is stupid question but how do you mean seperated? As in two different entities? Or.....do you mean having her soul restored in the same body and having them share one body. Kinda like a dr jekle/hyde bit? I vote to bring her soul back though as i think it would be an awesome twist. Have willow do the same thing that she did in s4 to find Angels soul.
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Post by Joss on Jun 6, 2004 1:04:52 GMT
As I said before, read all of the posts in the "Fred" thread for the info on this issue.
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Post by ChrsgemATL on Jun 6, 2004 1:32:25 GMT
Thanks, I just read it all and I still vote YES>
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PuppetCancer
Champion
I do NOT have puppet cancer!
Posts: 108
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Post by PuppetCancer on Jun 6, 2004 5:42:06 GMT
DAMMIT! I can only vote once "1" is the lonliest number
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Post by Joss on Jun 6, 2004 5:43:54 GMT
OH, that reminds me.
PuppetCancer, what were the names of all those other accounts you created back when you couldn´t get a password? I probably should delete those just to be safe.
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Dismas
Vampire with a Soul
Posts: 97
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Post by Dismas on Jun 9, 2004 3:05:59 GMT
Damn.
I think I just voted yes and I meant to vote no. I think my voting priveleges should be rescinded.
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Post by Doyle on Jun 9, 2004 3:44:51 GMT
This topic is now locked as the Fred/Illy split has already been decided and is in the "ground rules" thread.
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Post by Drew on Jun 16, 2004 6:57:02 GMT
There's a large question we still need to answer regarding the seperating of Fred and Illyria. What we have so far is that Fred's soul will start to emerge and threaten Illyria's life.
But WHY is her soul emerging again? What happened to change things?
Is Grace involved? (just a thought I had - no specifics, unfortunately)
So this is an important question. let's answer it.
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Post by Joss on Jun 16, 2004 16:11:11 GMT
During my absence this is one of the things that I thought of. I got an explanation that I am sure a lot of you will find A) Cheesy or B) a bunch of incoherent scientific babble. But here we go anyway:
Around the begining of the episode Time Bommb the essence of Illyria was complete. She had her powers, her memories, her cool-ass time shift thing, her blue eyes, basically the whole package deal. Her soul was complete.
Cue in Wes and his ray gun.
From one day to another bam! about 80% of her powers are gone, cast into a parrallel pocket universe or whatever the hell Wesley was saying before Angel interrupted him. So you see, that leaves a void, a pretty big-ass void.
So what does the essence of Illyria do to fill in this void? She begins to slowly comnce filling it with bits and pieces that were left floating around in her wake. And most of these pieces would be the broken and scattered shards of Winifred Burkle's soul.
So as the void begins to slowly refill with Fred's soul Illyria begins to feel strange, and then everything else that we have said happens.
All right, that's my weirdo explanation. If anyone has any thoughts about it go ahead and tear it apart.
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Post by Drew on Jun 16, 2004 18:46:24 GMT
It's believable, I think. But it'd be nice if it was because of something that stemmed from this new season and not something that's tieing up a loose end from the S5.
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Post by Drew on Jun 19, 2004 22:51:37 GMT
You know what would be nice:
If Fred's reemerging soul stems from the unbalanced, entropic theme of the season. Maybe her soul is reemerging because things are moving steadily towards a state of imbalance. If things were right, Fred would stay dead, but they are not right. Fred's reemergence will be a result of entropy.
How does that sound? I kinda like it. It's simple and understandable. Or isn't it?
Thoughts?
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Post by Joss on Jun 19, 2004 23:03:10 GMT
It's an interesting idea.
This is... isn't it just a bit too... convenient that Fred's soul is the only one that comes back.
Now if we did some kind of a Dawn of the Dead episode where all of the people that have died in the last... say 72 hours came back... then we might be able to work it.
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Post by Drew on Jun 19, 2004 23:07:16 GMT
I don't think so. Illyria is a special case, I think. She's this really old demon that took over Fred's shell and buried Fred's soul far below, destroying some of it, even.
I don't think anyone could say something like that has happened to anyone else.
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Post by Joss on Jun 19, 2004 23:11:00 GMT
Okay, yeah, I guess that it could workout.
But there is one other problem, who are Angel and Co going to find out how is it that Fred's soul is returning? I don't think that Angel/Spike/Illyria have the wit to figure it out.
Andrew? Don't think that he has enough knowledge to do it.
Guess that leaves Alan or Grace... hmm, I think that Grace would be a better choice to do the exposition here.
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Post by Drew on Jun 20, 2004 18:39:56 GMT
Yeah, Grace would be good. She might just finally tip Angel & Co. off, make them realize what the problem is exactly. Eventually, Fred's emerging soul should become visually obvious, though.
The more I think about it, the more I believe that having the theme of chaos and imbalance of the world being visually represented in the shell of Fred/Illyria is the perfect way to really make the audience understand just what is going on after Angel took out the Black Thorn. In this way, Illyria becomes a metaphor for what is happening on a larger scale.
The Second Law of Thermodynamics talks about how closed systems tend toward disorder. "nonequilibrium distributions would become increasingly disordered leading to a final state of macroscopic uniformity and microscopic disorder."
So instead of having Fred's emerging soul threaten Illyria, i think her soul should be mixing in with Illyria, they should be tending towards uniformity and disorder, eventually killing both of them. So Angel will try to save them. His choices are, kill Fred's emerging soul (he's not doing that), let them both die, or split them at the cost of an innocent life. It's not as perfect as before, but it works better thematically. And the ep would still have the same ending - with someone killing the innocent.
"the system will select the path or assembly of paths out of otherwise available paths that minimizes the potential or maximizes the entropy at the fastest rate given the constraints." The new path that has opened up is Fred's soul and the reason it opened was because Angel took on the system of evil. So Illyria should start feeling the effects from the very first episode.
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Post by Joss on Jun 20, 2004 18:48:00 GMT
So instead of having Fred's emerging soul threaten Illyria, i think her soul should be mixing in with Illyria, they should be tending towards uniformity and disorder, eventually killing both of them. I just realized that all of you have been misunderstanding my three-posible-outcomes of the Illyria problem for a long time. My idea was that the shell, not actually Illyria would die. That both of them would die is what I was trying to say all along instead of just Illyria dying. Yeah, I guess I didn't make that clear enough. Sorry.
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Dismas
Vampire with a Soul
Posts: 97
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Post by Dismas on Jun 20, 2004 19:00:46 GMT
I still prefer Angel to have to option of letting Illyria die to save Fred. Angel will rule this out because Illyria's become part of the team. Illyria will be surprised to see Angel try to protect her. Fred will be mad because Angel's dragging his feet instead of letting her kill the thing that killed her.
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Post by Drew on Jun 20, 2004 19:02:00 GMT
Oh....cool.
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