Grace's Plan / Good Apocalypse II

[Joss]

The old thread was longer than some novels that I've read; it was time to start a new one.

[Joss]

These are some of the ideas of the old thread that seemed to be popular:

Written by Drew:

I think we should sprinkle examples of W&H throught the season, starting sometime in ARC II. There should just be something or someone that is associated with them - but we won't know that until the very end. Just some character that's in the background, that'll pop up occassionally, and then will end up doing something at the end, when we finally understand that they were working on behalf of the Senior Partners.

Maybe this person or thing or whatever would help Angel cut the world off from the Powers. He might be starting a Good Apoc but at least he's helping get rid of those pesky Powers, who have always irritated the SP.

Written by Inyan:

Back in the day there was not distinct defined dimensions of good/orlerly beings and evil/chaotic beings. The fight between good and evil was going on in all the dimensions. This is the way this supreme power wanted it. He believed that some day one side would naturally win over the other, that this process should be left to run to completion.

The PTB and SP had other plans. Neither side wanted to be the loosing one. They were prepared to organise a coup to oust this supreme power and form definate areas of demarkation. The fight would be isolated to our dimension.

They tricked this supreme power into manifesting himself in our dimension. Once manifested they inprisoned him.

The fighting that ensued on earth was so violent that it nearly ripped our dimension appart. Wanting to maintain their new order the PTB and SP agreed to alow only their weaker classes to fight on earth. Some powerful ones didnt like this idea and refused to leave. They too were imrisoned and placed with the Supreme Power in a place which became known as The Deeper well.

Graces task is to release this Supreme Power thereby causing thigs to revert to their former state. A state in which good will be allowed to win over evil.

Chaos would negate the effects of Destiny/Fate etc.

If the PTB and SP had to gang up on this guy to trap him the power boost he would gain because of all the added chaos in the world now, would make him stronger than both of them combined.

Written by Drew:

Fate is more powerful than the PTB and the SP. But the PTB and the SP ganged up and took Fate down. Imprisoned it. Controlled it. They essentially took the monopoly on fate.
Now they can manipulate people, use them, guide them to their end - whether it be proper or not.

So essentially Grace's Plan would be to free Fate - to let everything go back to the way it should - put our destinies in our own hands.

The Chaos then should be something that allows Fate to be freed. It should make the Powers weaker.

Written by LizaP:

The beauty of this idea is that neither good nor evil wins, and that makes a lot of sense.

Written by Joss and Drew:

Fate wouldn't really do that. It would just be trading two controlling powers (TPTB & SP) for another (Fate). Right?

Fate could not work.

Written by Inyan:

We want something to completely negate he effect of the thousands of years of PTB/SP control and finally place the lives of mankind in their own hands. Just as the Supreme Being wanted in the first place.

[Joss]

Written by Inyan:

A thought I had last night. How does Grace recognise that Angel is the hero she is looking for and not Spike. If the SP mark their emissaries on earth, IE the black thorn tattoo, then the PTB must mark their champions somehow as well. But lets say its a mark on the soul level. Now the fact that Angel has both these marks seems really important to me. Lets say that wherever this Supreme Being is being held it can only be accessed by a representative from both sides, at the same time. Blood could somehow play a role.

Also I've been thinking about the stones. I've reworked the concept a bit. Lets say there are four, one for each compass point. When placed together in a circle the person standing inside says some magic word. This activates a spell. The person standing inside gets one step that will take him anywhere. So they need to get the stones, to get to the place where the Supreme Being is being held ( I like the idea of a chamber in the middle of the earth ). Since Angel is the only one who can open the prison he is the one that needs to go. The problem with this is that while the stones give you one step to anywhere, they offer no way of getting back. So Angel doesn't know if he's ever coming back. So in his mind he is sacrificing himself for mankind's sake.

As for what the Supreme being should personify, what about Nothingness. Fate, Destiny and even Chaos all get assimilated and even destroyed by Nothingness. So we can say that he was the great balancing power. With him on the on side of the equation and everything else on the other side. It was his job to absorb all the excess forces in the universe. With him gone these forces built up. There was fate and destiny before but it was only around in small amounts, it was less definable, people still had a modicum of control over their futures. However with this balancing force of Nothingness gone there was extra fate/destiny sloshing around, it became more defined, more open to control. The PTB and SP needed control over this excess fate/destiny in order to manipulate mankind and keep the fight between good and evil going. This is the only balance they are fighting to keep. This balance is unnatural. We must remember that balance doesnt always mean equal forces on opposite sides. The most balanced thing is a point. This point, the final winning force, is the only sustainable point of balance that can naturally be acheived. Things need to be allowed to run to completion.

This is what Grace and Angel should hope to acheive. A new world order in which good and evil are allowed to fight to the end, were things can reach an ultimate point of balance. A world in which good can win over evil and vice versa, a world where thay will be allowed to keep on the path they started down by taking out the circle of the black thorn.

Written by Inyan:

So here's my idea in point form.

1.In the beginning there was the PTB, the SP on one hand and a “Balancing Power” on the other.
2.The Fight between good and evil was meant to run to completion with one side emerging victorious and the other ceasing to exist.
3.Both the PTB and SP were so terrified of ceasing to exist that they joined forces to oust the “Balancing Power”, upsetting the universal balance, but creating an artificial balance between good and evil.
4.Angel upset this delicate balance by taking out TSOTBT.
5.Now both sides are scrambling to restore this tenuous balance.
6.Now Angel and Grace need to release this ousted power ( Whatever this may be. ), who by this time must be really pissed.
7.This power will either restore universal balance OR take out both the PTB and SP. Allowing the fight to go on at the human being level, with the removal of all outside influences.

Written by Drew:

Going off the idea that the soul is a plug to hold back the darkness (oh, and to explain evil in humans - plugs can leak) - and thinking about the idea that Grace wanted Angel to bring about the chaos for a reason - what if the chaos somehow causes his soul to just sort've fade away. The mixing of the good and evil for instance.

Because going off Saul's definition of a soul - it's something that is imposed upon a being. It limits choice.

So if his soul fades away and Angel still chooses to be good, that would be a big step for his character. He'd lose the curse. He'd become something new. And his fight would be more bearable.

And what we are all in absolute agreement as written by Drew:

Fuck the balance.

[Drew]

Alright! Grace's Plan/Good Apocalypse II, baby! The sequel! Whoooo!

So here we go:

This hasn't been discussed outside the Producers as of yet, but we're planning on Angel having sex with Grace and giving birth to himself - as a human...

So discuss, but it's pretty much set in stone and we're not gonna change anything.

Ah, April Fools. ;D Wha? It's February? Okay, here's my real idea, though the former is not without its brilliance.

What hasn't been discussed outside our circle of producers is an idea for an episode in the third Arc of our season. In this episode, Grace will essentially send Angel on a trip through her memories and the memories of others. It will essentially be mental time-travel for Angel. Through these memories, Angel discovers Tobit's true nature.
But the part that's important here comes from a scenario that Inyan put forth a month or two back.
What if Angel went back in time and somehow prevented Darla from biting him? All that death he brought about as a soulless being would be prevented. And then what if he was given a very good reason to acknowledge that all that death served an ultimate purpose - a good and pure purpose. Would he be able to sire himself?
So what if Grace's memory trip takes Angel back to his siring - and he stops Darla from turning himself into a vampire (in this mental/memory time-travel, Angel would be able to interact with people and things). But ultimately he realizes that the ends justify the means in this case. He can bring about so much more good - even if he did commit all that evil.
So he sires himself.
And this siring of himself would be like an acceptance - a full acceptance, without any doubt existing within himself - (see where I'm going with this?). He's accepted the evil within him, and it has no more sway over him.
This could be the tipping point for him losing his soul this season and moving beyond needing one. He will become good by choice - not because it was thrust upon him.
And since he has no more soul, he's free of all destinies thrown at him - he's free from the reach of the Powers. He's a Power unto himself.
And also - this is where the idea came from, too - it would bring ep. 1 of our season full circle. Angel was wondering then if he had anymore blood to shed. And this ep would show that he does. His own blood - Liam's blood.

And this way, we don't have to blame the chaos - which is always a good thing in my book.

And last but not least, the curse is lifted, leaving Angel free to bone Grace and give birth to himself. It's gonna be awesome.

[Drew]

I think it's a great idea, Drew. That must be why no one is commenting on it.

[Inyan]

I, of couse love it. Anytime something I said can be made to work is really cool in my book. Arent I great?? ;D

[Drew]

Meh. You have your moments.

[Joss]

I like that idea a lot.

I think that if we do this choice right it could be a great moment. Angel sees a chance to get rid of his past, to save all of the people that he murdered like Angelus, takes it. But finally he does realize that what he is doing is beyond redemption, he's actually doing good, would he take the responsibility of actually starting the killings himself? Of course what's great is that since this is a twisty-swirly memory/thought trip we can bend a couple of realities to make a good point (within reasonable boundries of course :

And actually this could be a great prequel if we chose to have Angel actually lose his soul in the final stretch. Here he is saying I'm doing good, not because of some curse I have no control over but because I chose to. But later on if he loses his sword then he has got to put his actions were his words are. Can he actually chose to be good because of his own will?

Okay, so this has nothing to do with what Drew said, just a wacky idea that I had and I'm not really sure even I like:

First off, this would take an insanely large amount of work from us but it might be really cool. I'm trying to outline episode eight. I'm trying to fit in a scene with Grace. I had this idea that she would have somehow gotten a polaroid camera and was assembling this huge collage of the most random things. It's made up of a huge amount of things, trees, sky, Angel, people crossing the street, ext. really miscellanous crap. At first I thought of just doing this as a one-episode thing, just the "Grace-odity of the week". But then I thought, what if she keeps doing it? she takes a snapshot of Tobit, one of Spike, one of the character of episode 15, ext. All the while taking more pictures of seemingly meaningless junk.

Then on like the episode 20 Angel and everyone are gathered in Grace's apartment. The collage has grown to be extremly large. Angel is just kinda staring at it absentmindedly. Then comes the Usual Suspects moment (if you haven't seen the Usual Suspects go see it NOW[/i] before I stop talking to you). Suddenly he sees that the collage shows in full detail how to achieve the Good Apocalypse. Grace has been putting it together all year, without even knowing what she was doing, or even why. She just had an urge to take pictures of everything and put it all together. You look at the individual pictures, even the indiviudal sections of the collage, it makes no sense. But then you look at it as a whole and it makes perfect sense.

So... how exactly would the collage explain how the G.A. works? No idea. It's just a really wacky and tentative idea that I just had. I'm not even sure if it makes sense at all. So just tear it apart. ;D ;D

[Inyan]

I really think that that could work. Good idea Joss.

[Drew]

That could maybe work. I guess I'd like to avoid the giant similarity between Leonard Shelby of "Memento" and Grace. Leonard had short-term memory loss and also took photos with a polaroid camera so...maybe we could have her do it some other way?

[Joss]

Hmm, you're right, the similarity is really glaring. Damn you Pop-Culture! Lousy, no-good idea hog...

But actually I can think of absolutely no reason as to why it would have to be a polaroid camera. The polaroid camera was just part of the gag of Grace and her oddities. It could very easily just be painting or sketches or some other form used to capture images. But it could also not just be images, maybe she has writing of some kind in there. The more random and miscellaneous seeming the better.

[Knuckles]

I'm not posotive I can post here but I just want to put my two cents. In (I'm british am I allowed to say that?)

Anyway if you want Grace to have images then a Camera would be good but also use newspapers artwork make the collage bigger put weapons perhaps a important weapon, blood, random words written. Because the Good Apocalypse is going to change everything so should be about everything the woods, the sky, the earth, water, fire, blood, life, death, fighting, peace all these things should be represented on the board in a way that shows balance

On the left you have all things related to the Powers That Be, Tobit with Grace closer to the center Angel, Spike, Illyria and Fred all in the centre with representations of the Earth around them, then to the right is all things Evil Senior Partners etc but part of it is crossed out in blood and the centre could be labled "All That Should Be." so Angel realises what he has to do that there should be no balance there should only be the Good Fight, there should be fate.

Also as for Angelus emerging, I was thinking say Angel knows he needs to go to a Hell place to bring this apocalypse about but the only place it could be done "Only A Champion Without A Soul May Enter." So Angel unensouls himself and falls too Hell. I can imagine a funny scene with Angelus trying to convince the leader of the demons too invade earth.

[Drew]

The thing about Grace making a collage of random things important to the Good Apocalypse - isn't this what her memory trip for Angel is? A collage of memories. Angel sees all these random memories and then puts it together in his head.
I just don't want us to get repetetive.

[Joss]

Yes Knuckles, you can post here. Once you send in your submission (which you've already done) you have access to all of Pre-Production.

Hmm, I hadn't thought of it that way Drew. You're kinda right, her mind is like a collage of random things. But somewhere in there, between the scattered memories of past and future lies the process to the good apocalypse. What's tricky is that we gotta find a way to somehow get it out of her brain and into a concrete shape.

Another idea: we have the idea that Grace remembers EVERYTHING, past and future. But maybe she doesn't remember all of the future. She only remembers up to a certain point, the exact moment when the Good Apocalypse happens. And maybe somehow, as she realizes that she is running out of memories to happen this is what allows her to organize her thoughts correctly.

I dunno. But there has to be some way of getting the GA out of the chaos of Grace's mind and into the chaos of the world.

[Drew]

Joss said:

What's tricky is that we gotta find a way to somehow get it out of her brain and into a concrete shape.

Why? Why not just have Angel figure it out while he's on his memory trip?

[Joss]

Hmm that could work out well enough. The reason I'm not unsure if it would work is because then we would have Angel learn two very big things in one single episode.

Which I guess could work out well. But we'd have to be careful about when we place this episode then. Maybe 18 or 19. I think that earlier might be too much time focusing on the apocalypse and later than that would be too little time dealing with Tobit as a villian.

But I guess that it might work. And it would also make things a hell of a lot simpler for us.

[Drew]

Well, we're still a long way off. We don't necessarily have to commit to having Angel discover Tobit is rotten in this ep. Could happen in another ep. But I think it makes sense for him to gain some understanding of the GA through this memory trip.

And really, if you think about it, we might not be telling the audience what Angel has figured out about the GA in this ep. We might reveal what he has learned later - like the last ep or second to last. So the Tobit thing would be the biggest reveal of the ep.

Well, no. Hold on a minute. Revealing to Angel that Tobit is rotten is not a big deal at all. Because the audience will already know by this point. They've seen him kill. So we need more of a surprise for this ep than just Tobit.

[Joss]

Well this is tricky.

We've got the audience already knowing that Tobit is evil, or that at least something is horribly wrong, but we need to have Angel discover it. Meanwhile we do need to set things into motion with the MoG's discovery of the GA. And we shuld also have a big reveal.

The best course of actions might be to have Angel find something in this memory trip that sets him on the course of finding the good apocalypse. Not necesarily spelling it out for him but just something to put a little fire under his ass to get going with the good apocalypse.

And maybe he could get a glimpse of the third power that the PTB and the SP beat (if we're going with that plan) during the ego memory trip. The reveal could be a hint that there is something out there other than the PTB & SP.

[Drew]

Joss said:

The best course of actions might be to have Angel find something in this memory trip that sets him on the course of finding the good apocalypse. Not necesarily spelling it out for him but just something to put a little fire under his ass to get going with the good apocalypse.

I agree with this. I think that would be best.

[Inyan]

We also need to steer clear of making this ep too similiar to the end of last season. We dont want to have a big reveal in the last to episodes and have it feel rushed.