|  Author | Topic: Grace's Plan/Good Apocalypse (Read 2,063 times) |
ThePowersThatBe
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Karma: 2 |  | Re: Grace's Plan/Good Apocalypse
« Reply #340 on Nov 25, 2004, 1:36am » | |
Quote:All of reality resides upon the Dark Tower, a sort of hub that holds up all the worlds. Each level represents a different reality, and the closer those realities are on the Tower, the more trivial those differences are (for example, in one reality, Co-Op city is in New York, and in another it's in Brooklyn). The Tower is held up by six Beams. At the top of the Tower is the Crimson King, who is trying to break the Beams and bring the Tower crashing down upon itself, thereby creating one reality which he would then rule, or more likely, snuff out existence entirely. Somewhere in the middle of the Tower is Keystone Earth, the one in which Stephen King himself resides, where time only moves one way. King has been charged with telling the tale of the battle for the Dark Tower, and everything else he writes is in some away about that struggle, whether he realizes it or not. As long as he continues to tell the tale, the Tower will be safe...
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Wow, never thought I'd be quoting myself in a post 
Anyway, I put that in, because a couple of days ago, I finally finished the last book, and there were a couple of other interesting things that I thought might be relevant.
It turns out that the Tower actually has a physical pressence in each world: in some, it's a rose, or a lampost, or a dog (man, I wish he would have gone into more detail on that one). In one world, which is referred to as Tower Keystone (and the one which I would assume to be at the bottom of the Tower), the Tower is, simply, the Tower, in its most literal form: a blackish, brownish, tower of stone, surrounded by a field of roses, reaching to the heavens, with turrets and windows spiralling all the way to the top, which contains a large circular room with thirteen windows, each a different color representing the thirteen colors of Maerlyn's Rainbow.
It turns out that The Crimson King was not at the top of the Tower, as nearly everyone (especially the tale's hero Roland Deschain) assumed: he went mad and tried to climb the Tower and eventually becamed trapped on a balcony. Something of particular note: before he left for the Tower, he killed himself by swallowing a spoon; however, the King is immortal, so by doing so he put himself in a place beyond death....
In the Keystone world, in New York, where the Tower is personnified as a red rose growing wild in a vacant lot, Roland and his fellows hid away the nastiest of the balls of Maerlyn's Rainbow, Black Thirteen, in the basement of #2 World Trade Center, to be retrieved in June of 2002. Oops. [Did Black Thirteen somehow cause 9/11? All too possible...]
I realize a lot of what I've said makes little to no sense without having read the series. Feel free to drop me a line and I'll go into as much detail as you like. I won't tell you the ending though, even though it makes for one more really interesting concept that we could actually use, one that rings especially true in light of the way Season Five of Angel ended. It's something that really should be reached on one's own, or else the magic of the tale loses its meaning. If you do read through it, you may not like the ending, but I for one thought it appropriate.
But now I'm babbling.
I'll throw more out here as it comes to mind...
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Inyan
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Karma: 3 | | Re: Grace's Plan/Good Apocalypse
« Reply #341 on Nov 29, 2004, 9:35am » | |
This whole "Dark Tower" topica came up as a result of my post about our world being the center universe in a spectrum of universes- an idea that wasnt really recieved well. So im not really sure why this theme has taken such a hold on everyones attention. I like the idea but I thought no one else did.
If the dark tower has been used in another idea and ive missed it, sorry ive been kinda out of the loop...
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Joss
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Karma: 0 | | Re: Grace's Plan/Good Apocalypse
« Reply #342 on Jan 9, 2005, 6:23am » | |
Hey guys, today I was reading this review of Not Fade Away and I found some interesting things which I thought might be of some use here. Just some stuff I thought might be good to post:
It's hard to believe you can sign away a prophecy. It's interesting that he's that willing to sacrifice himself. The circle and Wolfram & Hart misunderstand. They think the hope of the prophecy gave Angel strength. By removing that hope, they made him much more dangerous since he really has nothing to live for anymore. A suicide mission is no longer distasteful.
I had never thought of it this way but now I find that it is true. Whenever Angel had hope, whenever there was a light at the end of the tunnel he became weak, he lost strenght. But when all was lost, when he had no reason to keep on going he not only kept on going but he became stronger and more exacting, more dedicated to his purpose of destroying evil. I wonder how this may come into play with Angel's rut.
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Drew
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Karma: 0 | | Re: Grace's Plan/Good Apocalypse
« Reply #343 on Jan 9, 2005, 6:39pm » | |
That's really good to bring up. And I think that is what Angel's rut will be like, to some degree. He will be more dangerous and more dedicated to destroying evil. This is why he just starts working relentlessly for the Powers. he's totally focused on the path they are setting for him because he's got nothing else. He clings to this fight to a frightening degree.
And I've also thought that if we go that route where Angel will lose his soul but choose to be good, then he might go through some fairly wicked times, where he's in the process of losing his soul but not yet conquering the evil inside him - so he'd be doing evil stuff. I don't know.
Hey, we got the thread going again!
Should we maybe try to sum up some of the popular ideas that have come out of this thread and then start a new one fresh? It might be getting a little complex and lengthy here.
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Joss
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Karma: 0 | | Re: Grace's Plan/Good Apocalypse
« Reply #344 on Jan 10, 2005, 2:10am » | |
Yeah, we get some pretty good ideas here but then we hit one of our infamous walls and we kinda forget about 'em. Might be a good idea to try to find what were the ones that everyone likes and then start a new thread for this thing.
I'll start to read through the old posts tomorrow.
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Joss
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Karma: 0 | | Re: Grace's Plan/Good Apocalypse
« Reply #345 on Jan 13, 2005, 10:36pm » | |
Okay, I've been going through the old posts to find the stuff that we're in agreement about. IMo these are the highlights of our discussions in this thread over the past few months:
Written by Drew:
I think we should sprinkle examples of W&H throught the season, starting sometime in ARC II. There should just be something or someone that is associated with them - but we won't know that until the very end. Just some character that's in the background, that'll pop up occassionally, and then will end up doing something at the end, when we finally understand that they were working on behalf of the Senior Partners.
Maybe this person or thing or whatever would help Angel cut the world off from the Powers. He might be starting a Good Apoc but at least he's helping get rid of those pesky Powers, who have always irritated the SP.
Written by Inyan:
Back in the day there was not distinct defined dimensions of good/orlerly beings and evil/chaotic beings. The fight between good and evil was going on in all the dimensions. This is the way this supreme power wanted it. He believed that some day one side would naturally win over the other, that this process should be left to run to completion.
The PTB and SP had other plans. Neither side wanted to be the loosing one. They were prepared to organise a coup to oust this supreme power and form definate areas of demarkation. The fight would be isolated to our dimension.
They tricked this supreme power into manifesting himself in our dimension. Once manifested they inprisoned him.
The fighting that ensued on earth was so violent that it nearly ripped our dimension appart. Wanting to maintain their new order the PTB and SP agreed to alow only their weaker classes to fight on earth. Some powerful ones didnt like this idea and refused to leave. They too were imrisoned and placed with the Supreme Power in a place which became known as The Deeper well.
Graces task is to release this Supreme Power thereby causing thigs to revert to their former state. A state in which good will be allowed to win over evil.
Chaos would negate the effects of Destiny/Fate etc.
If the PTB and SP had to gang up on this guy to trap him the power boost he would gain because of all the added chaos in the world now, would make him stronger than both of them combined.
Written by Drew:
Fate is more powerful than the PTB and the SP. But the PTB and the SP ganged up and took Fate down. Imprisoned it. Controlled it. They essentially took the monopoly on fate.
Now they can manipulate people, use them, guide them to their end - whether it be proper or not.
So essentially Grace's Plan would be to free Fate - to let everything go back to the way it should - put our destinies in our own hands.
The Chaos then should be something that allows Fate to be freed. It should make the Powers weaker.
Written by LizaP:
The beauty of this idea is that neither good nor evil wins, and that makes a lot of sense.
Written by Joss and Drew:
Fate wouldn't really do that. It would just be trading two controlling powers (TPTB & SP) for another (Fate). Right?
Fate could not work.
Written by Inyan:
We want something to completely negate he effect of the thousands of years of PTB/SP control and finally place the lives of mankind in their own hands. Just as the Supreme Being wanted in the first place.
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Joss
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Karma: 0 | | Re: Grace's Plan/Good Apocalypse
« Reply #346 on Jan 13, 2005, 10:38pm » | |
Written by Inyan:
A thought I had last night. How does Grace recognise that Angel is the hero she is looking for and not Spike. If the SP mark their emissaries on earth, IE the black thorn tattoo, then the PTB must mark their champions somehow as well. But lets say its a mark on the soul level. Now the fact that Angel has both these marks seems really important to me. Lets say that wherever this Supreme Being is being held it can only be accessed by a representative from both sides, at the same time. Blood could somehow play a role.
Also I've been thinking about the stones. I've reworked the concept a bit. Lets say there are four, one for each compass point. When placed together in a circle the person standing inside says some magic word. This activates a spell. The person standing inside gets one step that will take him anywhere. So they need to get the stones, to get to the place where the Supreme Being is being held ( I like the idea of a chamber in the middle of the earth ). Since Angel is the only one who can open the prison he is the one that needs to go. The problem with this is that while the stones give you one step to anywhere, they offer no way of getting back. So Angel doesn't know if he's ever coming back. So in his mind he is sacrificing himself for mankind's sake.
As for what the Supreme being should personify, what about Nothingness. Fate, Destiny and even Chaos all get assimilated and even destroyed by Nothingness. So we can say that he was the great balancing power. With him on the on side of the equation and everything else on the other side. It was his job to absorb all the excess forces in the universe. With him gone these forces built up. There was fate and destiny before but it was only around in small amounts, it was less definable, people still had a modicum of control over their futures. However with this balancing force of Nothingness gone there was extra fate/destiny sloshing around, it became more defined, more open to control. The PTB and SP needed control over this excess fate/destiny in order to manipulate mankind and keep the fight between good and evil going. This is the only balance they are fighting to keep. This balance is unnatural. We must remember that balance doesnt always mean equal forces on opposite sides. The most balanced thing is a point. This point, the final winning force, is the only sustainable point of balance that can naturally be acheived. Things need to be allowed to run to completion.
This is what Grace and Angel should hope to acheive. A new world order in which good and evil are allowed to fight to the end, were things can reach an ultimate point of balance. A world in which good can win over evil and vice versa, a world where thay will be allowed to keep on the path they started down by taking out the circle of the black thorn.
Written by Inyan:
So here's my idea in point form.
1.In the beginning there was the PTB, the SP on one hand and a “Balancing Power” on the other.
2.The Fight between good and evil was meant to run to completion with one side emerging victorious and the other ceasing to exist.
3.Both the PTB and SP were so terrified of ceasing to exist that they joined forces to oust the “Balancing Power”, upsetting the universal balance, but creating an artificial balance between good and evil.
4.Angel upset this delicate balance by taking out TSOTBT.
5.Now both sides are scrambling to restore this tenuous balance.
6.Now Angel and Grace need to release this ousted power ( Whatever this may be. ), who by this time must be really pissed.
7.This power will either restore universal balance OR take out both the PTB and SP. Allowing the fight to go on at the human being level, with the removal of all outside influences.
Written by Drew:
Going off the idea that the soul is a plug to hold back the darkness (oh, and to explain evil in humans - plugs can leak) - and thinking about the idea that Grace wanted Angel to bring about the chaos for a reason - what if the chaos somehow causes his soul to just sort've fade away. The mixing of the good and evil for instance.
Because going off Saul's definition of a soul - it's something that is imposed upon a being. It limits choice.
So if his soul fades away and Angel still chooses to be good, that would be a big step for his character. He'd lose the curse. He'd become something new. And his fight would be more bearable.
And what we are all in absolute agreement as written by Drew:
Fuck the balance.
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